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honeymiel
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04 Apr 2018, 6:20 pm

Both my older brother and I have ASD, his symptoms are much more obvious than mine but he is undiagnosed

My older brother is 30. He's never had a girlfriend, has no friends, barely keeps in touch with family but will attend events a few times a year when we invite him. Problem is, even when he does attend, he looks and smells like a homeless person.

He has a job but I honestly don't know how he managed to find employment full-time because he doesn't really groom his unkept hair/facial hair, rarely gets a haircut, rarely smiles (usually scowls or looks uncomfortable). He wears faded, poorly fitting clothes that have holes in them and may be covered in layers of dirt and stains. He often smells like either he or his clothes haven't be washed in a while

I talked to him about it a few years ago after he turned up to Christmas smelling rank and wearing a decades-old hand-me-down jacket that, once beige, had turned dark brown from wear and tear and had obviously never been washed. I kept asking him if he'd let me take him shopping for new clothes, and after he kept saying no, I eventually said quite bluntly, "I don't mean to be horrible but you look and smell homeless in that". At the time, he replied a bit angrily that it's his choice whether to care about clothing. He told our younger brother about it a year later so obviously it stayed with him and bothered him. However, not much has changed (except we never see that jacket anymore)

I probably sound shallow but I want the best for my brother. Our parents aren't around and I'd like him to have more social support as we get older. There's always a slight fear in the back of my mind that he could commit suicide one day and we'd never really have gotten a chance to intervene, he is terribly isolated and never reaches out to us. I don't think he has anyone at all.

I feel like if he cared more about his appearance, he might have more confidence to make a few friends and maybe get a girlfriend (or boyfriend) one day. People would be more receptive to him if he smelled and looked presentable.

Does anyone have any ideas on how to get through to him?

I'll be buying him a few new shirts/jumpers for when I see him next weekend, but I'm not sure if he'll even wear them



CockneyRebel
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04 Apr 2018, 6:50 pm

Have you asked him why he presents himself as he does? Maybe he doesn't want people to get too close to him, so he doesn't wash and groom himself. I'm Transgender and Gay and I don't want guys to get too close to me, so I wear one of my three German helmets - 1 self-made, 1 toy and or the real one - on any given day.


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kraftiekortie
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04 Apr 2018, 7:42 pm

It could actually be dangerous to his health to be so dirty.

I hope he embraces the clothes you bought him.

I, myself, used to be an unkempt person----until I discovered how GOOD being clean really feels.



shortfatbalduglyman
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04 Apr 2018, 7:47 pm

unless you have the authority to fire, flunk, evict, or dump your brother, or something like that, you have no control over his appearance.

your brother is 30 years old, as you said.

and you are younger.

whatever reason your brother looks the way he does, has been going on for a long time.

way too often, someone is superficial, judgmental, materialistic. they laugh at my clothes (holes in polo shirt), shoes, hair, and et cetera.

but maybe

it is what is on the inside that matters.

okay?

you claim you have good intentions.

and i am sure you do.

however, not all good intentions lead to successful outcomes.

:D



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04 Apr 2018, 7:50 pm

It sounds like he prefers his own company. What was he like as a kid and teen, was he any differnt? How often do you reach out to him, since he's not into initiating? Lots of times autism means lack of self awareness. Meaning he doesn't know or care how he appears to others. He might need you to look after him, getting him clothes and to a barber or whatever. I still live at home, so I wear what is bought for me. But my parents pretty much have to force me to take a shower and wear clean clothes.

I have shaggy long hair because I hate getting haircuts or even having my hair brushed. And I'm developing a scruffy beard because I hate shaving or being shaved. I'm more comfortable being scruffy. I like wearing the same clothes all the time because they are more comfortable than new clothes. I prefer to be alone as much as possible. But I'm not miserable or lonely. But still I like knowing my family loves and supports me. Even though I'm not capable of showing affection.



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04 Apr 2018, 8:39 pm

I think I understand your problem. It's difficult. My son does wash his clothes but he wont throw them out if they get problems like holes in them. He lives overseas so I don't see him often and the time before last when I visited I realised he was wearing shoes that were falling to bits and socks with holes. To his horror I went through his underwear drawer and he didn't have a single pair of jocks or socks that weren't falling to bits. I bought him new stuff and it caused a lot of friction between us but he lives in a country where people often have to take their shoes off and I told him bluntly people would think less of him if they saw holes in his socks so he grudgingly accepted them. He would not co-operate with trying on shoes so I just guessed his size and hoped they fitted.

He hates shopping and always has. Shopping centres are overwhelming places with too much sensory input. He also has very strict ideas about clothes. He will not wear anything with a pattern, picture or logo on it. When he was young it was a nightmare. Kids shirts always, always, always have pictures and or patterns. He has limited colours he will wear. Blue, red and pink are acceptable but he wont wear green, brown, black or grey. He also has a lot of textures he can't cope with. He might quite like something until he touches it then it's just a 'No!'

My Uncle has clothes trouble too. He understands there is such a thing as fashion but he doesn't know how to apply the idea. He could wear check trousers and a paisley shirt and he would understand people were staring at him because his clothes were wrong but not be able to identify what was wrong with them. My Mum used to make up outfits for him. She would put a pair of trousers, two shirts, a jumper and a jacket together on a hanger. She would label the hangers with work, weekend or going out to dinner. He would keep all the outfits together on their hangers. She still had to keep an eye on him because he would wear them until the cuffs were frayed or buttons had fallen off. Mum's dead now and I do worry how my Uncle is going but he lives in another state and it would be too weird if I turned up and went through his wardrobe.

Despite their sartorial impairment, they are both brilliant and successful people. It's been said clothes are superficial, it's what's inside that counts and that's sort of true but there are societal expectations in relation to clothing. Associate Professors and Lawyers are expected to wear clothes without holes and it could cause them problems if they didn't.
I think trying to find out exactly why your brother is doing what he does is probably important. Maybe then you can find a way to address the issue. Good luck.


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04 Apr 2018, 9:08 pm

I think you should let him dress and groom as he pleases, if as you say he is holding down a job. Some jobs allow one to be rather shoddy in appearance.

Keep inviting him to family functions, but if his odor offends you, you can instruct him that he must bathe and come in clean clothes.

Sometimes we Aspies bite off more than we can chew in trying to intervene in a loved one's affairs, to our detriment and the other person's, as well.


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honeymiel
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04 Apr 2018, 9:33 pm

CockneyRebel wrote:
Have you asked him why he presents himself as he does? Maybe he doesn't want people to get too close to him, so he doesn't wash and groom himself. I'm Transgender and Gay and I don't want guys to get too close to me, so I wear one of my three German helmets - 1 self-made, 1 toy and or the real one - on any given day.


I haven't asked him but in the conversation we had a few years ago, he claimed he just didn't care and that it should be up to him to decide how he dresses and how much he cares about it.

I understand that logic, but considering he has no confidence and looks quite depressed and empty as a person, I don't know how much I can accept it. I think he would be happier if he took better care of himself (his diet and health are also very poor, and it affects his mood). Or maybe he would take better care of himself if he were happier... I don't know.

kraftiekortie wrote:
It could actually be dangerous to his health to be so dirty.

I hope he embraces the clothes you bought him.

I, myself, used to be an unkempt person----until I discovered how GOOD being clean really feels.


I think there are many dangers to his health, both physically and mentally. Poor diet, little exercise, low mood/depression, easily agitated, no meaningful social connections... I feel like the way someone dresses and carries themselves, plus other physical features like unhealthy skin, sunken eyes and obesity, can actually tell you a lot about their self-esteem and health habits



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04 Apr 2018, 9:46 pm

honeymiel wrote:
Both my older brother and I have ASD, his symptoms are much more obvious than mine but he is undiagnosed

My older brother is 30. He's never had a girlfriend, has no friends, barely keeps in touch with family but will attend events a few times a year when we invite him. Problem is, even when he does attend, he looks and smells like a homeless person.

He has a job but I honestly don't know how he managed to find employment full-time because he doesn't really groom his unkept hair/facial hair, rarely gets a haircut, rarely smiles (usually scowls or looks uncomfortable). He wears faded, poorly fitting clothes that have holes in them and may be covered in layers of dirt and stains. He often smells like either he or his clothes haven't be washed in a while

I talked to him about it a few years ago after he turned up to Christmas smelling rank and wearing a decades-old hand-me-down jacket that, once beige, had turned dark brown from wear and tear and had obviously never been washed. I kept asking him if he'd let me take him shopping for new clothes, and after he kept saying no, I eventually said quite bluntly, "I don't mean to be horrible but you look and smell homeless in that". At the time, he replied a bit angrily that it's his choice whether to care about clothing. He told our younger brother about it a year later so obviously it stayed with him and bothered him. However, not much has changed (except we never see that jacket anymore)

I probably sound shallow but I want the best for my brother. Our parents aren't around and I'd like him to have more social support as we get older. There's always a slight fear in the back of my mind that he could commit suicide one day and we'd never really have gotten a chance to intervene, he is terribly isolated and never reaches out to us. I don't think he has anyone at all.

I feel like if he cared more about his appearance, he might have more confidence to make a few friends and maybe get a girlfriend (or boyfriend) one day. People would be more receptive to him if he smelled and looked presentable.

Does anyone have any ideas on how to get through to him?

I'll be buying him a few new shirts/jumpers for when I see him next weekend, but I'm not sure if he'll even wear them


He will do what he wants but you could ask him to shower and put on some clean clothes before he comes over.



honeymiel
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04 Apr 2018, 9:59 pm

shortfatbalduglyman wrote:
unless you have the authority to fire, flunk, evict, or dump your brother, or something like that, you have no control over his appearance.

your brother is 30 years old, as you said.

and you are younger.

whatever reason your brother looks the way he does, has been going on for a long time.

way too often, someone is superficial, judgmental, materialistic. they laugh at my clothes (holes in polo shirt), shoes, hair, and et cetera.

but maybe

it is what is on the inside that matters.

okay?

you claim you have good intentions.

and i am sure you do.

however, not all good intentions lead to successful outcomes.

:D


I am 3 years younger, but I am the 'eldest sibling' in every way except for chronological age. Also, I'm dating someone who is shorter than me, overweight, doesn't earn all that much, doesn't dress very sharply. I don't care about those things because he's warm, confident and happy

The thing is, grooming is often a reflection of how the person sees themselves or feels about themselves. My brother is not warm, confident or happy. He is moody and withdrawn. He doesn't take care of himself. I want him to take care of himself. I want him to feel better about himself. And I recognise that nobody else but him can do that

The world is a superficial place and people do get judged on hygiene/grooming. Maybe that's unfair but it is a social norm, and non-conformity is usually reserved for people who have social issues. Thus, it makes them stand out and get treated worse. For my brother to have better social support, he'd need to take grooming more seriously

But maybe he doesn't know what to do and why?
Maybe he doesn't understand that people will treat him more kindly/attentively if he's showered, cut his hair, dressed in clean clothes and smiles more often. Or maybe he's given up on the idea that things could be different. I'm quite sure he is alexithymic and doesn't recognise his own level of depression/apathy toward life, but I worry about him



honeymiel
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04 Apr 2018, 10:01 pm

Chronos wrote:
He will do what he wants but you could ask him to shower and put on some clean clothes before he comes over.


I don't really mind how he dresses when we see him. What worries me is how he lives the rest of the time when we don't see him. I've been worried for years that he'll just kill himself one day, he is so isolated and without confidence or happiness. That's what bothers me the most and why I feel responsible for trying to intervene

I've talked to him about all sorts of things - getting diagnosed, moving into a healthier living environment, eating more vegetables, going overseas, finding a hobby, making friends. Nothing changes. His grooming is at least a very basic, tangible thing that would help



honeymiel
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04 Apr 2018, 10:10 pm

bunnyb wrote:
I think I understand your problem. It's difficult. My son does wash his clothes but he wont throw them out if they get problems like holes in them. He lives overseas so I don't see him often and the time before last when I visited I realised he was wearing shoes that were falling to bits and socks with holes. To his horror I went through his underwear drawer and he didn't have a single pair of jocks or socks that weren't falling to bits. I bought him new stuff and it caused a lot of friction between us but he lives in a country where people often have to take their shoes off and I told him bluntly people would think less of him if they saw holes in his socks so he grudgingly accepted them. He would not co-operate with trying on shoes so I just guessed his size and hoped they fitted.

He hates shopping and always has. Shopping centres are overwhelming places with too much sensory input. He also has very strict ideas about clothes. He will not wear anything with a pattern, picture or logo on it. When he was young it was a nightmare. Kids shirts always, always, always have pictures and or patterns. He has limited colours he will wear. Blue, red and pink are acceptable but he wont wear green, brown, black or grey. He also has a lot of textures he can't cope with. He might quite like something until he touches it then it's just a 'No!'

My Uncle has clothes trouble too. He understands there is such a thing as fashion but he doesn't know how to apply the idea. He could wear check trousers and a paisley shirt and he would understand people were staring at him because his clothes were wrong but not be able to identify what was wrong with them. My Mum used to make up outfits for him. She would put a pair of trousers, two shirts, a jumper and a jacket together on a hanger. She would label the hangers with work, weekend or going out to dinner. He would keep all the outfits together on their hangers. She still had to keep an eye on him because he would wear them until the cuffs were frayed or buttons had fallen off. Mum's dead now and I do worry how my Uncle is going but he lives in another state and it would be too weird if I turned up and went through his wardrobe.

Despite their sartorial impairment, they are both brilliant and successful people. It's been said clothes are superficial, it's what's inside that counts and that's sort of true but there are societal expectations in relation to clothing. Associate Professors and Lawyers are expected to wear clothes without holes and it could cause them problems if they didn't.
I think trying to find out exactly why your brother is doing what he does is probably important. Maybe then you can find a way to address the issue. Good luck.


From the conversations my family and I have had with my brother, the main thing we've found is that he is completely apathetic towards life. He claims he has never felt any emotion, like loneliness or love. I think he is alexithymic, because even though he gets easily agitated, says he doesn't feel love for us, the fact that he shows up to family events and gets us small token gifts for Christmas tells me that he does care.

I think if he felt emotion, he would feel very depressed and lonely. You can see it in his eyes, you can see it written all over his face, in his posture, in his health habits, and in his grooming.
He is extremely intelligent, but every aspect of his life is quite poor except for the fact that he is employed.

I don't know how to help him. I feel frustrated that I can't. Hence why I am buying him clothes

Maybe it's misguided and I should accept that I can't do anything



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04 Apr 2018, 10:23 pm

This is a rather embarrassing to admit, but I would fit the description of honeymiel's brother or bunnyb's son very well, and it has led to problems with people that I've shared accommodation with and employers in the past.

Depression is definitely a factor, both in the sense of becoming apathetic about it and that it brings out the worst in my executive functioning problems, but I think it would be a mistake to blame it entirely on poor self-esteem. There is definitely a sense in which I fail to comprehend the importance of it unless I give it some very conscious attention. In the absence of any external reminders, only the most basic of requirements for dressing/grooming really pop into my head - the pure physical need to be warm enough and protected from the elements. It's as if I'm not even aware of dressing myself, very often, and the same set of clothes will be picked up from wherever I put them the day before without any thought of how long I have been wearing the same ones, or whether the clothes or my body are smelly.

It's kind of the same thing when it comes to the state of my clothes. Hating shopping is certainly one aspect, but again, so long as any holes, tears, stains etc. don't make the clothes uncomfortable or let in the cold too much, it simply doesn't occur to me that there's any problem, or that anyone else would have a problem with it if they were dressed similarly. I have a couple of very good friends who are very honest with me when I am "letting myself go", and no matter how many times they prompt me, it catches me by surprise every time (I am not offended by them doing this, and actually wish that people would be this honest more often instead of being "polite".)

Honest feedback about the effect which it has on the people around me does usually result in an improvement, but I generally revert to my usual shabby self without the reminders, or if I spend any amount of time without company. I'm not sure any of that helps you at all, they are rather spur of the moment thoughts, and I'm not sure I understand my own behaviour in this regard very well.


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05 Apr 2018, 4:42 am

Trogluddite wrote:
This is a rather embarrassing to admit, but I would fit the description of honeymiel's brother or bunnyb's son very well, and it has led to problems with people that I've shared accommodation with and employers in the past.

Depression is definitely a factor, both in the sense of becoming apathetic about it and that it brings out the worst in my executive functioning problems, but I think it would be a mistake to blame it entirely on poor self-esteem. There is definitely a sense in which I fail to comprehend the importance of it unless I give it some very conscious attention. In the absence of any external reminders, only the most basic of requirements for dressing/grooming really pop into my head - the pure physical need to be warm enough and protected from the elements. It's as if I'm not even aware of dressing myself, very often, and the same set of clothes will be picked up from wherever I put them the day before without any thought of how long I have been wearing the same ones, or whether the clothes or my body are smelly.

It's kind of the same thing when it comes to the state of my clothes. Hating shopping is certainly one aspect, but again, so long as any holes, tears, stains etc. don't make the clothes uncomfortable or let in the cold too much, it simply doesn't occur to me that there's any problem, or that anyone else would have a problem with it if they were dressed similarly. I have a couple of very good friends who are very honest with me when I am "letting myself go", and no matter how many times they prompt me, it catches me by surprise every time (I am not offended by them doing this, and actually wish that people would be this honest more often instead of being "polite".)

Honest feedback about the effect which it has on the people around me does usually result in an improvement, but I generally revert to my usual shabby self without the reminders, or if I spend any amount of time without company. I'm not sure any of that helps you at all, they are rather spur of the moment thoughts, and I'm not sure I understand my own behaviour in this regard very well.


Teeth should be brushed twice per day.
Hair should be brushed or comb twice per day as well, or as needed.
Underwear and socks should be changed every day.
If you change your underwear every day.
Bathing is variable. Some people bathe twice per day and some people bath twice per week. How often you need to bathe not to smell or become dirty depends on your own lifestyle habits, but if you bathe daily and change your socks and underwear daily, you can typically get away with wearing the same clothes longer without smelling than you otherwise would.
If you bathe in the evening and put on clean underwear after, you will typically also reduce the frequency with which you will need to change and wash your bed sheets or wash your pajamas if you wear any.

As for outer clothing, if I were to be particularly lax, I would say that the maximum amount of time you should wear bottoms and tops without washing them would be a week, provided you have changed your underwear daily.



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05 Apr 2018, 8:56 am

Smell is my absolute worst sensory trigger. I have seen patrons coming into the library dressed shabbily and absolutely reeking! It makes me almost throw up. I feel for you.



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05 Apr 2018, 10:56 am

I'm homeless. I only have one pair of shoes, one pair of pants, a few underwears, one t-shirt and a hooded camouflage sweater. No one has ever complained about odors in regards to me. Life is simpler this way, for sure.