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Tokatekika
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27 Sep 2019, 8:08 am

kraftiekortie wrote:
There is action being taken. Maybe not enough, though.

I believe deniers like Trump are holding back progress.

I do believe elements in the Earth, if the mechanisms involved in climate change are reversed, can accelerate progress exponentially—more, perhaps, than is conceived by the models. I believe the natural world has the power to rejuvenate itself when, perhaps, given a boost by Humankind.

Nobody ever thought people would be fishing in the Hudson River in NYC...but they are!

Endangered species have been reintroduced—and some of are now flourishing where once extinction seemed inevitable.

Yes, we have to do something. What irks me is the statements of inevitability—that we are automatically doomed, no matter what.


Yes I do believe the earth will replenish itself faster than we give credit as well with the right help and there have been cases in which the inevitable changed to being possible.

I think what greta is trying to say though is things could become "doomed" if allowed to go on for too long and it would be bad of us (who have caused much of the issues) to ignore it and let it get to a point which is too far to rejuvenate. More just needs to be done as you say to ensure it doesn't get to that point


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MrsPeel
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27 Sep 2019, 8:12 am

For example, I just looked up the 2013 IPCC report 'The Physical Science Basis' and the predictions for short-term climate effects were based on 42 different models from around the world, and four different emissions scenarios.
Sorry, just following on from my earlier post.



Last edited by MrsPeel on 27 Sep 2019, 8:16 am, edited 1 time in total.

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27 Sep 2019, 8:15 am

Tokatekika wrote:
Money is worth nothing if we end up in a climate disaster, especially if it goes as far as getting very difficult to undo what's been done... (yes this sounds catastrophising but it is an actual poasibility

Ugh, this reminds of when I was a 4th year Economics student. I could not get anyone (students or professors) to understand that if the region (or planet) becomes uninhabitable all the money and economic progress in the world literally means nothing. They would just repeat that the models showed we "couldn't afford" to care about the environment. One once even went so far as to say food production is such a small part of the economy it can be ignored in our analysis! That should have been my cue to realize what a worthless profession it really was.



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27 Sep 2019, 8:19 am

I don’t doubt that the models have a point.

I’m hoping I don’t have to become drastically “green,” change my lifestyle, in order to hold off the catastrophe.

I’m hoping all that needs to be done is to become more moderate about things.

I want to travel. Frankly, many locations outside of the “West” have limited provisions for those who are Vegan.



Tokatekika
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27 Sep 2019, 8:24 am

kraftiekortie wrote:
I don’t doubt that the models have a point.

I’m hoping I don’t have to become drastically “green,” change my lifestyle, in order to hold off the catastrophe.

I’m hoping all that needs to be done is to become more moderate about things.

I want to travel. Frankly, many locations outside of the “West” have limited provisions for those who are Vegan.



I don't believe she is wanting each individual to go drastically green. There are little things you can do to help of course, however it's more to the point that let's say airline companies for example since you want to travel, should be working on solutions to make flying more green and in turn you can travel but with it affecting the climate drastically less


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Tokatekika
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27 Sep 2019, 8:27 am

GiantHockeyFan wrote:
Tokatekika wrote:
Money is worth nothing if we end up in a climate disaster, especially if it goes as far as getting very difficult to undo what's been done... (yes this sounds catastrophising but it is an actual poasibility

Ugh, this reminds of when I was a 4th year Economics student. I could not get anyone (students or professors) to understand that if the region (or planet) becomes uninhabitable all the money and economic progress in the world literally means nothing. They would just repeat that the models showed we "couldn't afford" to care about the environment. One once even went so far as to say food production is such a small part of the economy it can be ignored in our analysis! That should have been my cue to realize what a worthless profession it really was.


Yes exactly, people are so hell bent on preserving money when eventually money would just be worthless cause they let the world go to poop.

Better to spend the money to conserve now and then money will actually be worth something later


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27 Sep 2019, 8:32 am

kraftiekortie wrote:
Yes, we have to do something. What irks me is the statements of inevitability—that we are automatically doomed, no matter what.


Nobody is saying we are automatically doomed - but as far as irreversibility of climate change goes then yes, there is a chapter in the IPCC report I was just looking at called 'Long Term Climate Change: Projections, Commitments and Irreversibility'. (italics mine)

It says "a large fraction of climate change is largely irreversible on human timescales, unless net anthropogenic CO2 emissions were strongly negative over a sustained period'.

This is what they mean by future warming being, to a certain extent, 'locked in' whatever we do now.
The argument at this stage is more about how to keep that 'locked in' global warming within the range that we, and the ecological systems we rely on for our survival, can tolerate.



Tokatekika
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27 Sep 2019, 8:37 am

MrsPeel wrote:
kraftiekortie wrote:
Yes, we have to do something. What irks me is the statements of inevitability—that we are automatically doomed, no matter what.


Nobody is saying we are automatically doomed - but as far as irreversibility of climate change goes then yes, there is a chapter in the IPCC report I was just looking at called 'Long Term Climate Change: Projections, Commitments and Irreversibility'. (italics mine)

It says "a large fraction of climate change is largely irreversible on human timescales, unless net anthropogenic CO2 emissions were strongly negative over a sustained period'.

This is what they mean by future warming being, to a certain extent, 'locked in' whatever we do now.
The argument at this stage is more about how to keep that 'locked in' global warming within the range that we, and the ecological systems we rely on for our survival, can tolerate.


Plus even if we are unsure if climate change would be able to be reversible or not. It is best not to take chances on something so important, if there is even a chance, that if we don't do more it will be irreversible, we have to do more.

Better than not doing anything because it "might not get that bad"... Nobody can properly predict but if it did get that bad, we wouldn't know how properly to manage a climate we have never had before and it would mean extinction for many animals


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27 Sep 2019, 8:38 am

GiantHockeyFan wrote:
Tokatekika wrote:
Money is worth nothing if we end up in a climate disaster, especially if it goes as far as getting very difficult to undo what's been done... (yes this sounds catastrophising but it is an actual poasibility

Ugh, this reminds of when I was a 4th year Economics student. I could not get anyone (students or professors) to understand that if the region (or planet) becomes uninhabitable all the money and economic progress in the world literally means nothing. They would just repeat that the models showed we "couldn't afford" to care about the environment. One once even went so far as to say food production is such a small part of the economy it can be ignored in our analysis! That should have been my cue to realize what a worthless profession it really was.


Very true, during the gold rush in Alaska, money was worth very little. Buying food that did not exist was impossible and there was no way to refresh the food stock. Hyperinflation is common during period of great distress.


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Tokatekika
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27 Sep 2019, 8:41 am

goatfish57 wrote:
GiantHockeyFan wrote:
Tokatekika wrote:
Money is worth nothing if we end up in a climate disaster, especially if it goes as far as getting very difficult to undo what's been done... (yes this sounds catastrophising but it is an actual poasibility

Ugh, this reminds of when I was a 4th year Economics student. I could not get anyone (students or professors) to understand that if the region (or planet) becomes uninhabitable all the money and economic progress in the world literally means nothing. They would just repeat that the models showed we "couldn't afford" to care about the environment. One once even went so far as to say food production is such a small part of the economy it can be ignored in our analysis! That should have been my cue to realize what a worthless profession it really was.


Very true, during the gold rush in Alaska, money was worth very little. Buying food that did not exist was impossible and there was no way to refresh the food stock. Hyperinflation is common during period of great distress.


Yep, if we are in a climate crisis its not very likely we will be worrying about buying food from the shop...


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27 Sep 2019, 8:52 am

Yeah. I think we in the west are a bit out of touch with how much we rely on natural systems, we rarely experience shortages of food and clean water. (I thought we were suffering after Cyclone Larry when we had to go a few months without bananas!)
With climate change, things are just going to get a lot harder all round, first in areas that rely on subsistence farming, and later the developed world.



Tokatekika
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27 Sep 2019, 9:05 am

MrsPeel wrote:
Yeah. I think we in the west are a bit out of touch with how much we rely on natural systems, we rarely experience shortages of food and clean water. (I thought we were suffering after Cyclone Larry when we had to go a few months without bananas!)
With climate change, things are just going to get a lot harder all round, first in areas that rely on subsistence farming, and later the developed world.


Definitely and many turn a blind eye if they can't see it happening right in front of their face, but as soon as they see that they can't have something like clean water or bananas as you say! Ha they would probably want to change their mind about doing something about climate change... However by the point they're noticing things it's likely gone too far! Hence needing to do more now :)


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27 Sep 2019, 9:08 am

Yep....that's the nature of people, indeed.....if something is not concretely before their face, and it's abstract, people tend not to heed it.

I'm probably the same way.



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27 Sep 2019, 9:13 am

kraftiekortie wrote:
Yep....that's the nature of people, indeed.....if something is not concretely before their face, and it's abstract, people tend not to heed it.

I'm probably the same way.


We are all different, hence why I say some techniques of striking against climate change etc will reach some. People and not. Others, but hopefully it will. Get enough recognition for more to be done :)


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27 Sep 2019, 9:14 am

There is a real life cautionary tale that needs to be discussed.

It happened in France in the year 1000AD. [France experienced a famine in the year 1000. The cause was rather unusual. The year 1000 was a time of extraordinary suffering, for the whole country was seized with a panic, fearing that the world would come to an end during this the millennial year. Thousands went on pilgrimages, deserting their homes and their fields and obstructing the whole normal course of their existence. Since the fields were left unplowed and unplanted and since the world did not come to an end, starvation set in.]

The point to this real life tale is that panic can produce great damage and reap great destruction.

So if people really believe the world will end in 15 years due to global warming, then it probably will. Because they will alter their daily life, quite their jobs. Agriculture, trade, energy, transportation, sanitation, health sectors will dissolve away and it will become a self fulling prophesy.

There are many interpretations of the effect of man-made global warming. It falls on a spectrum. The IPCC is not predicting the end of the world in 15 years. It is a fringe element within the environmental movement that is taking this position. The reason why is because they are trying to push governments into action. So they make these bold claims. And in the process they frighten young children to the point where these children are experiencing severe stress, anxiety and trauma.


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Tokatekika
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27 Sep 2019, 9:22 am

jimmy m wrote:
There is a real life cautionary tale that needs to be discussed.

It happened in France in the year 1000AD. [France experienced a famine in the year 1000. The cause was rather unusual. The year 1000 was a time of extraordinary suffering, for the whole country was seized with a panic, fearing that the world would come to an end during this the millennial year. Thousands went on pilgrimages, deserting their homes and their fields and obstructing the whole normal course of their existence. Since the fields were left unplowed and unplanted and since the world did not come to an end, starvation set in.]

The point to this real life tale is that panic can produce great damage and reap great destruction.

So if people really believe the world will end in 15 years due to global warming, then it probably will. Because they will alter their daily life, quite their jobs. Agriculture, trade, energy, transportation, sanitation, health sectors will dissolve away and it will become a self fulling prophesy.

There are many interpretations of the effect of man-made global warming. It falls on a spectrum. The IPCC is not predicting the end of the world in 15 years. It is a fringe element within the environmental movement that is taking this position. The reason why is because they are trying to push governments into action. So they make these bold claims. And in the process they frighten young children to the point where these children are experiencing severe stress, anxiety and trauma.


I've not see anyone say the world is going to end in 15 years though?

What she's said is there could be a crisis in 11 years I believe in which it will be hard to reverse climate change but not that it would be the end of the world, just the end of the world 'as we know it' and we would have to change a lot of things then and animals would go extinct. They also have scientific evidence that the sea levels are rising and that parts of the UK will be covered in ocean eventually which we can already see happening. People's homes have literally fallen into the sea here because the sea has took the land...

It is important people know that it is happening, however yes, it probably is causing anxiety and fear in children, but unfortunately if we do nothing to stop it, the anxiety will only get worse... If we start doing something, those said children will most likely be relieved of anxiety and the world in turn would be benefited anyway


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