About unusual studies between HFA and criminal behavior

Page 1 of 2 [ 20 posts ]  Go to page 1, 2  Next

FranzOren
Veteran
Veteran

Joined: 10 Jun 2019
Gender: Male
Posts: 1,936

01 Mar 2022, 8:56 pm

There are a few articles that state that HFA can highten the risk for criminal behavior, but it's unusual because, in those situations, it's related to lack of social skills, not out of maliciousness or sadism. And those few studies are unusual, because most scientific articles states that most people with ASD are less likely to commit crimes and more likely to be victims than being perpetrators.


Those unusual studies:

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3416662/

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/17294982/

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/17032961/

https://youtu.be/7GjuAdqi1nA



jimmy m
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 30 Jun 2018
Age: 73
Gender: Male
Posts: 7,285
Location: Indiana

02 Mar 2022, 8:22 am

In general I would say the study is wrong. Most Aspies are not criminals. But the study may have to do with being an Aspie.

For example, many Aspies do not make eye to eye contact. Most NTs who are deep in a conversation automatically assume that someone who does not make eye to eye contact is LYING, AND HAS CRIMINAL INTENTIONS.

But in reality this is not the case. So they automatically assume from the get-go that we have malicious intents.

I will give an example. Several years ago I bought a type of one-way-glasses. It looked like I was wearing a pair of sunglasses but it was really a type of one way glasses. I would wear these glasses everywhere. It produced a very unusual experience. People would come up to me and begin conversations with me out of the blue. Many people began to trust me as if I was their friend. It was a totally different world.

Because they could not see my eyes, they just automatically assumed I was an NT.

A very simple move can transform you from an Aspie to an NT. And strangers on the street personality towards you change.


_________________
Author of Practical Preparations for a Coronavirus Pandemic.
A very unique plan. As Dr. Paul Thompson wrote, "This is the very best paper on the virus I have ever seen."


funeralxempire
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 27 Oct 2014
Age: 37
Gender: Non-binary
Posts: 17,572
Location: I'm right here

02 Mar 2022, 11:04 am

Most people with autism don't engage in criminal activity.

Of those who do, inability to understand social norms might be a contributing factor to their criminality.

The study FranzOren has linked to isn't about people diagnosed as Aspergers, it's about people diagnosed as HFA and specifically focuses on how more severe social impairments play a role, relative to people with Aspergers.

Also worth noting, and contrary to preferred opinion here:

Quote:


It's possible for people with HFA or ASD in general to be over-represented as victims and also be over-represented as perpetrators.


_________________
You can't buy happiness; steal it.
戦争ではなく戦争と戦う


FranzOren
Veteran
Veteran

Joined: 10 Jun 2019
Gender: Male
Posts: 1,936

02 Mar 2022, 3:11 pm

That actually makes sense sense. Thank you!

It's just that Prof. Sam Vaknin explaind that crimes committed by people with HFA is actually violent, but I don't know if that is accurate. I think it's more accurate that crimes related to Communication Disorders and Autism Spectrum Disorder is associated with lack of understanding social boundaries and someone having meltdown than being violent. Statistically, most people with ASD are less likely to be malicious, sadistic and are more likely to be victims than the general population, especially antisocial people, but when small sub-groups of people with ASD are malicious and sadistic, they tend to have Distributive, Impulsive Control and Conduct Disorders.



funeralxempire
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 27 Oct 2014
Age: 37
Gender: Non-binary
Posts: 17,572
Location: I'm right here

02 Mar 2022, 4:23 pm

FranzOren wrote:
That actually makes sense sense. Thank you!

It's just that Prof. Sam Vaknin explaind that crimes committed by people with HFA is actually violent, but I don't know if that is accurate. I think it's more accurate that crimes related to Communication Disorders and Autism Spectrum Disorder is associated with lack of understanding social boundaries and someone having meltdown than being violent. Statistically, most people with ASD are less likely to be malicious, sadistic and are more likely to be victims than the general population, especially antisocial people, but when small sub-groups of people with ASD are malicious and sadistic, they tend to have Distributive, Impulsive Control and Conduct Disorders.


For violent crimes I would want to look into how often it involves people in that subgroup you mention, with those comorbidities because I'd imagine the comorbidities are stronger predictors even if ASD might also be relevant.

I'd also be very curious how often violent crimes by people with autism are premeditated vs. how many are impulsive because that breakdown might provide more insight. Violence in the midst of a meltdown seems less malicious than the misanthropes who are convinced all of humanity has always been about to get them and turn into suicide commandos, for example. I'd be willing to bet that both types appear among 'violent criminals with ASD' but different approaches would be needed to address the two sets of people.


_________________
You can't buy happiness; steal it.
戦争ではなく戦争と戦う


autisticelders
Veteran
Veteran

Joined: 23 Feb 2020
Gender: Female
Posts: 988
Location: Alpena MI

02 Mar 2022, 7:05 pm

thanks for those links, there has been so little study done on autism and autistic folk who are in jail for any reason. Crime has been associated in a few studies to intellectual disabilities or impairment, but no studies of general population have been done to attempt to learn how many incarcerated or with criminal records might have enough autistic traits for diagnosis. Todays understanding of the ties (if any) between crime and autism is sorely lacking. I appreciate your bringing this topic up for discussion. thank you


_________________
https://oldladywithautism.blog/

"Curiosity is one of the permanent and certain characteristics of a vigorous intellect.” Samuel Johnson


FranzOren
Veteran
Veteran

Joined: 10 Jun 2019
Gender: Male
Posts: 1,936

02 Mar 2022, 10:08 pm

You guys brought up good points.

But, I wonder if I am right that crimes related to associated with Communication Disorder and Autism Spectrum Disorder is related to lack of social boundaries and when violence has accrued, it was due to huge misunderstandings.

Sources:

http://jaapl.org/content/40/2/177

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/22635288/



kraftiekortie
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 4 Feb 2014
Gender: Male
Posts: 84,027
Location: Queens, NYC

03 Mar 2022, 5:46 am

Criminality amongst people with autism is much less than within the general population.

This obsession with associating autism with criminality and socio/psychopathy is based on fallacious reasoning.

And it causes people on WrongPlanet to feel like they are less than they actually are. This upsets me.



autisticelders
Veteran
Veteran

Joined: 23 Feb 2020
Gender: Female
Posts: 988
Location: Alpena MI

03 Mar 2022, 6:55 am

There is absolutely no proof to any of these assertions, there has not been any scientific evidence presented in actual studies involving large numbers of people (making a study more likely to be valuable by statistics) and it is one of those social "myths" perpetuated by media and self-important so called "professor" types.

Autistic individuals have actually been documented in multiple studies to be a very high percentage of victims of crime of all sorts rather than being perpetrators. That HAS been documented.

Stigma is something most of us have experienced in our lives, and assumptions of alleged criminality made by people on social media can be blown up and misrepresented rapidly, doing much harm. Call out such assumptions when and where you find them.

I will loudly repudiate and contest such assumptions whenever possible.
Look at all the "theories" and "treatments" of the past for examples of this sort of thing.


_________________
https://oldladywithautism.blog/

"Curiosity is one of the permanent and certain characteristics of a vigorous intellect.” Samuel Johnson


autisticelders
Veteran
Veteran

Joined: 23 Feb 2020
Gender: Female
Posts: 988
Location: Alpena MI

03 Mar 2022, 7:04 am

A quick search of Sam Vaknin's credentials show he is a highly contested fake and fraud, phony seeking attention and profit. He has absolutely no expertise in the areas of psychology and psychiatry he discusses on youtube. To seek facts, one looks at studies, don't trust media self adulating "experts".


_________________
https://oldladywithautism.blog/

"Curiosity is one of the permanent and certain characteristics of a vigorous intellect.” Samuel Johnson


funeralxempire
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 27 Oct 2014
Age: 37
Gender: Non-binary
Posts: 17,572
Location: I'm right here

03 Mar 2022, 9:53 am

I look forward to seeing you refute the studies FranzOren linked, supposing you've got something that actually addresses those studies. So far no one's ever presented anything that would qualify no matter how often it's promised.


_________________
You can't buy happiness; steal it.
戦争ではなく戦争と戦う


FranzOren
Veteran
Veteran

Joined: 10 Jun 2019
Gender: Male
Posts: 1,936

03 Mar 2022, 11:41 am

autisticelders wrote:
There is absolutely no proof to any of these assertions, there has not been any scientific evidence presented in actual studies involving large numbers of people (making a study more likely to be valuable by statistics) and it is one of those social "myths" perpetuated by media and self-important so called "professor" types.

Autistic individuals have actually been documented in multiple studies to be a very high percentage of victims of crime of all sorts rather than being perpetrators. That HAS been documented.

Stigma is something most of us have experienced in our lives, and assumptions of alleged criminality made by people on social media can be blown up and misrepresented rapidly, doing much harm. Call out such assumptions when and where you find them.

I will loudly repudiate and contest such assumptions whenever possible.
Look at all the "theories" and "treatments" of the past for examples of this sort of thing.



That is why I pointed out that those studies are unusual, because I don't want stigma on ASD on general.



auntblabby
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 12 Feb 2010
Gender: Male
Posts: 110,331
Location: the island of defective toy santas

10 Mar 2022, 3:35 pm

jimmy m wrote:
I will give an example. Several years ago I bought a type of one-way-glasses. It looked like I was wearing a pair of sunglasses but it was really a type of one way glasses. I would wear these glasses everywhere. It produced a very unusual experience. People would come up to me and begin conversations with me out of the blue. Many people began to trust me as if I was their friend. It was a totally different world. Because they could not see my eyes, they just automatically assumed I was an NT. A very simple move can transform you from an Aspie to an NT. And strangers on the street personality towards you change.

i have worn prescription sunglasses for years and have not had that kinda luck. anyways, my time in the military exposed me to folks who in retrospect seemed aspie, but who also were people i'd always have to watch my back around.



The_Znof
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 14 Sep 2011
Age: 52
Gender: Non-binary
Posts: 1,089
Location: Vancouver Canada

10 Mar 2022, 10:12 pm

autisticelders wrote:
A quick search of Sam Vaknin's credentials show he is a highly contested fake and fraud, phony seeking attention and profit. He has absolutely no expertise in the areas of psychology and psychiatry he discusses on youtube. To seek facts, one looks at studies, don't trust media self adulating "experts".




hes drunk! if anythings bad over here its adhd wtf lol. :jester:

heres a kind of disturbing pair of paragraphs from one of the studies.

Quote:
Nonsexualized Violent Crimes and hfASDs

As previously stated, criminal activity in individuals with hfASD psychopathology may be divided into (1) deficits in Theory of Mind abilities and/or (2) abnormal repetitive narrow interests. Violent behavior among children, adolescents, and even adults with AD is not uncommon.13 hfASD individuals charged with crimes may present with nonsexual violent behavior. Among adults, several cases of nonsexualized violent behavior ranging from assaults to serial killing have been described in the psychiatric literature.5,6,10,11,46,48,51 For example, Murrie and colleagues10 reported an attempted murder by a 44-year-old man who shot the psychologist who was performing a child custody evaluation. The perpetrator feared the evaluation would be unfavorable, and he believed shooting the author of the evaluation would improve his chances of maintaining custody. Baron-Cohen6 described the case of 21-year-old John, who attacked others whenever his routine was disturbed. He had a 71-year-old “girlfriend” whom he had recurrently assaulted shortly after ruminating about his jaw.

Abnormal repetitive narrow interests appear to be a most important domain associated with criminal activity in individuals with hfASD. The universe of repetitive narrow interests that may be associated with criminal activities in hfASD is likely to be very large. For example, a well-known case involved a man fixated on city transit–related activities. He had been arrested for driving subway trains and buses without authorization and flagging traffic around New York City Transit Authority construction sites.52 Repetitive narrow interests typical of AD have also been documented in association with stealing and hoarding behaviors.53 Stalking refers to focused, repetitive, and persistent following that is unsolicited and unwanted by the person who becomes the object of attention. hfASD cases may be found among certain stalkers. The “incompetent suitor” who feels isolation and loneliness and is socially inept, with an obsessive preoccupation with and sense of entitlement to the victim and indifference to the wishes of the victim may have hfASD.54 Reported stalking cases among persons with hfASDs have included following and touching, kidnapping and bondage, and attempted murder.55


havent got to any real nt vs fhasd numbers here, at this point the study is going on as if these issues are unique to hfasd. seems like real crap and real numbers from it would shock me. 8O



FranzOren
Veteran
Veteran

Joined: 10 Jun 2019
Gender: Male
Posts: 1,936

11 Mar 2022, 11:47 am

autisticelders wrote:
A quick search of Sam Vaknin's credentials show he is a highly contested fake and fraud, phony seeking attention and profit. He has absolutely no expertise in the areas of psychology and psychiatry he discusses on youtube. To seek facts, one looks at studies, don't trust media self adulating "experts".


I clicked on his credentials and it doesn't work. He shows his credentials on Instagram. But I have a very serious question, how in the world does he teach psychology in colleges and universities? He does, I saw it on YouTube.



funeralxempire
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 27 Oct 2014
Age: 37
Gender: Non-binary
Posts: 17,572
Location: I'm right here

11 Mar 2022, 11:59 am

The_Znof wrote:
Quote:
Nonsexualized Violent Crimes and hfASDs

As previously stated, criminal activity in individuals with hfASD psychopathology may be divided into (1) deficits in Theory of Mind abilities and/or (2) abnormal repetitive narrow interests. Violent behavior among children, adolescents, and even adults with AD is not uncommon.13 hfASD individuals charged with crimes may present with nonsexual violent behavior. Among adults, several cases of nonsexualized violent behavior ranging from assaults to serial killing have been described in the psychiatric literature.5,6,10,11,46,48,51 For example, Murrie and colleagues10 reported an attempted murder by a 44-year-old man who shot the psychologist who was performing a child custody evaluation. The perpetrator feared the evaluation would be unfavorable, and he believed shooting the author of the evaluation would improve his chances of maintaining custody. Baron-Cohen6 described the case of 21-year-old John, who attacked others whenever his routine was disturbed. He had a 71-year-old “girlfriend” whom he had recurrently assaulted shortly after ruminating about his jaw.

Abnormal repetitive narrow interests appear to be a most important domain associated with criminal activity in individuals with hfASD. The universe of repetitive narrow interests that may be associated with criminal activities in hfASD is likely to be very large. For example, a well-known case involved a man fixated on city transit–related activities. He had been arrested for driving subway trains and buses without authorization and flagging traffic around New York City Transit Authority construction sites.52 Repetitive narrow interests typical of AD have also been documented in association with stealing and hoarding behaviors.53 Stalking refers to focused, repetitive, and persistent following that is unsolicited and unwanted by the person who becomes the object of attention. hfASD cases may be found among certain stalkers. The “incompetent suitor” who feels isolation and loneliness and is socially inept, with an obsessive preoccupation with and sense of entitlement to the victim and indifference to the wishes of the victim may have hfASD.54 Reported stalking cases among persons with hfASDs have included following and touching, kidnapping and bondage, and attempted murder.55


havent got to any real nt vs fhasd numbers here, at this point the study is going on as if these issues are unique to hfasd. seems like real crap and real numbers from it would shock me. 8O


I'd interpret that as it only discussing those sorts of behaviours within the context of autism, not that they're completely discounting the idea that such behaviours could never be demonstrated by someone who doesn't have autism.

Some of those are quite rare, like bus-guy has autism and it's fair to suggest his fixation on buses is at the core of why he keeps driving them despite not having credentials to drive them.


_________________
You can't buy happiness; steal it.
戦争ではなく戦争と戦う