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Dandansson
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11 Feb 2022, 5:03 am

Howdy folks!
I have heard some people, mostly people with an ASD diagnosis, say that NT is much a disorder as ASD. I don't really know if I ever came across some good arguments for this view. Some people say that neither NT nor ASD are disorders as it is better to call them conditions.

What would the arguments be for the fact that both NT and ASD are conditions or disorders?
All I know is that people with NT talk about NT issues, people with ASD complain how even NT have issues with theory of mind or that many professionals talk about how the issues presented in ASD can be something that an NT can struggle with, eg communication issues.

Do I even like the term NT? Not really! It's to broad. If ASD includes too many different kinds of people NT includes even more kinds of people.
But the big question have to be: if NT means non-ASD can NT refer to people with only ADHD or people with schizofrenia and so on? Even if we excluded those people NT would be to broad of a category.
Do we really have a definition of NT? We don't even seem to have a good definition of ASD.



cyberdad
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11 Feb 2022, 5:19 am

if you plot people's "mental status" along a composite measure or spectrum then most people fall in the middle which is "normal" or NT



theprisoner
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11 Feb 2022, 5:20 am

I would assume, NT is the statistical average on a bell curve.
With outliers (ND) at both ends.
It's a numerical thing.
Population genetics.


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cyberdad
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11 Feb 2022, 5:49 am

theprisoner wrote:
I would assume, NT is the statistical average on a bell curve.
With outliers (ND) at both ends.
It's a numerical thing.
Population genetics.


Yep, something like that.



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11 Feb 2022, 6:50 am

NT is not a disorder or condition. It's just the standard brain wiring.

NT does not mean only people without ASD. It means anyone not born with a condition/disorder/disability that affects development, be it social, emotional or intellectual.

So non-autistic people that have ADHD, downs syndrome, Fragile-X syndrome, or intellectual disabilities, etc, are also non-NT.

It is not binary. Most autistic people don't see anything beyond autism, they just see it is autism and NT, nothing else. There are other developmental disorders other than autism that can cause social, emotional or intellectual challenges. I wish autistic people on this site would see that.


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carlos55
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11 Feb 2022, 8:31 am

NT was never meant to be a label or identity it was just a scientific term to describe the ordinary unaffected healthy brain.

It’s how scientists compare the two, without it things would get confusing

In the same way most people within an age band have a typical ability to walk while others cannot and require crutches or wheelchair.

The words condition / disorder are interchangeable. You’ll hear people say they have a heart condition when they do it’s certainly not benevolent.


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11 Feb 2022, 9:02 am

I take ASD people as a sub instance of broader neuro-diverse group, you may call it a ND people.

When it comes to NT - it is a kind of a standard condition, which is of course fluctuating from one individual to another, just like in case of ASD people. NT is also a kind of "spectrum".

But there's one strong case of calling AS a "disorder". There are autistic people (and neuro-diverse people of other types) who aren't really mentally and intellectually fit for existence without any assistance. And I am not saying about "existence in society", I am talking about any existence at all, as in - if they would be left alone or even among others like them, in any conditions, even most favourable to them, they would sooner or later die due to their inability to function well enough to take care of themselves.

Savants, an extreme case of autism, are a good example here - their brains are extremely efficient at doing (usually) one kind of thing, but their overall IQ is very low. A mathematical genius solving complex equations in mere seconds wouldn't live long left alone, when his mind cannot grasp such basic concept as preparing a meal. There are people with Down syndrome who are certainly non-NT, but can function independently, but there are far more of people with this genetic disease who cannot.

Well, in case of NT people, one needs to have some sort of severe sickness (including addiction, for example) or disability for them to not be able to function without help of others.



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11 Feb 2022, 9:23 am

NTs are full of problems. Who are we trying to kid here? Though not all NTs have the following problems, the following problems exist are almost exclusively found in NTs:

-Submitting to peer pressure to do stupid, sometimes life-threatening things like drug use at parties, drinking contests, fraternity hazing, car-hopping and taking selfies while standing near the edge of a cliff.

-Causing two-mile highway bottlenecks because they slammed on the brakes to stare at a car parked on the shoulder, or at a cop issuing a ticket off on the shoulder, or some other trite, inane event that their little minds MUST STARE AT.

-Over reactions, freaking out, panicking, screaming during an emergency or crisis instead of keeping calm, cool and collected and acting tactically.

I can go on and on, and I mean ON AND ON AND ON.

Majority doesn't mean "normal."

Though many NTs have it all together, this is also true of some with mild autism. Yes, I can live with my aversion to stickers and tags. This aversion manifests at HOME, and if someone were to observe it from far away, they'd think I was severely crippled with something. But after spending 20 minutes removing stickers from my new broom handle, I can still go into the community and save the day.

I've known NTs who completely fall apart under stress and in other circumstances carry on like complete idiots. But because they're 95% of the population, they get to dictate what's "normal" and what's not.



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11 Feb 2022, 11:28 am

Saying that NT is a disorder is like saying ND isn't, or like some say "everybody is a little bit autistic".
If everything is a disorder then nothing is a disorder.
It's like saying there are no good people since everybody do evil things, perhaps not as bad or as often, but it happens. But if there are no good people then there are no bad people either, one cannot exist without the other.

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11 Feb 2022, 11:53 am

At times humour has been used, turning around description of the autism spectrum. For example, I may say in jest "a person with neurotypicality spectrum disorders may suffer from an inability to find passionate all consuming interests. They may struggle to use language pricisely. They have difficulty with "delusion of mind" which is s compulsion to imagine meanings, emotions and intentions to things rather than being able to see what is actually there. Some people on the neurotypicality spectrum struggle with weak peripheral convergence, meaning they can miss lots of details and get caught up in big vague ideas and concepts. Some may have eye contact issues which cats will find either aggressive or rude, meaning they may be unable to enjoy the long term human-feline connection.
/ Humour off ;



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11 Feb 2022, 12:35 pm

rowan_nichol wrote:
At times humour has been used, turning around description of the autism spectrum. For example, I may say in jest "a person with neurotypicality spectrum disorders may suffer from an inability to find passionate all consuming interests. They may struggle to use language pricisely. They have difficulty with "delusion of mind" which is s compulsion to imagine meanings, emotions and intentions to things rather than being able to see what is actually there. Some people on the neurotypicality spectrum struggle with weak peripheral convergence, meaning they can miss lots of details and get caught up in big vague ideas and concepts. Some may have eye contact issues which cats will find either aggressive or rude, meaning they may be unable to enjoy the long term human-feline connection.
/ Humour off ;


Neurotypicality spectrum disorder also goes by "HSD" -- hypersocial disorder, also known as SSS: social status syndrome. Another feature is a propensity to worship talentless people and make them famous. Another trait: an odd propensity to sit perfectly still while using a computer or watching TV.



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11 Feb 2022, 1:05 pm

NTs suffer greatly from the following symptoms:

Obsession with being what they call "normal"

No empathy for anyone who doesn't act, look, or think what they call "normal"

Lack of attention to detail. Sees details as "petty", worthless or not masculine.

Vague, confusing speech, tendency to say one thing and mean something completely different, expects everyone to be able to read their mind and know what they actually mean, reacts very negatively when they don't.

Inability to resist "peer pressure", will quickly and even willingly do things that are dangerous or just plain stupid in order to "fit in". Will also pressure others and bully them unmercifully if they refuse.

Inability to tolerate other people's opinions or liking something that they don't, believes firmly that "the complainer is always wrong", and that everyone must share the same opinions and like the same things in order to get along. Frequently confuses opinions or "factiods" with actual facts, e.g. vaccines save lives and do not cause autism.

May claim to love animals, but has very poor knowledge or education of the animals' behavior, diet, general likes and dislikes. Sees animals as exactly the same as humans and will do things that can harm them, such as feeding them human food or dressing them in stupid little outfits. Or they firmly believe all animals are the same as dogs, and must have the same slave-like devotion to pleasing their masters. Because of this they tend to dislike cats.

Constantly lying, doesn't just tell "white lies", but lies so much they are shocked and bewildered when other people tell the truth. Hates honesty and will be deeply offended when anyone tells them the truth or what they don't what to hear. Often gets rewarded for lying and dishonesty due to the majority of humans in the world suffering from the NT disease.

NT disease, there is no cure. :(



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11 Feb 2022, 7:02 pm

lostonearth35 wrote:
NTs suffer greatly from the following symptoms:

Obsession with being what they call "normal"

No empathy for anyone who doesn't act, look, or think what they call "normal"

Lack of attention to detail. Sees details as "petty", worthless or not masculine.

Vague, confusing speech, tendency to say one thing and mean something completely different, expects everyone to be able to read their mind and know what they actually mean, reacts very negatively when they don't.

Inability to resist "peer pressure", will quickly and even willingly do things that are dangerous or just plain stupid in order to "fit in". Will also pressure others and bully them unmercifully if they refuse.

Inability to tolerate other people's opinions or liking something that they don't, believes firmly that "the complainer is always wrong", and that everyone must share the same opinions and like the same things in order to get along. Frequently confuses opinions or "factiods" with actual facts, e.g. vaccines save lives and do not cause autism.

May claim to love animals, but has very poor knowledge or education of the animals' behavior, diet, general likes and dislikes. Sees animals as exactly the same as humans and will do things that can harm them, such as feeding them human food or dressing them in stupid little outfits. Or they firmly believe all animals are the same as dogs, and must have the same slave-like devotion to pleasing their masters. Because of this they tend to dislike cats.

Constantly lying, doesn't just tell "white lies", but lies so much they are shocked and bewildered when other people tell the truth. Hates honesty and will be deeply offended when anyone tells them the truth or what they don't what to hear. Often gets rewarded for lying and dishonesty due to the majority of humans in the world suffering from the NT disease.

NT disease, there is no cure. :(



Sorry, you are entitled to your opinion but this is somewhat distorted.

Normality is like health.NT People don't go around obsessing over "being normal" just like people of average health don't go around obsessing over "being healthy".

If you are "normal" you never think about whether you are normal or not. Just like health. If you aren't sick then nobody thinks whether they are healthy.

Many people do check themselves (for example many women watch their weight/appearance and many men check their muscles or fitness). In the same way people follow social norms and watch what they say or try to impress others in the social circles they move in.

So I think you are projecting what some autistic people obsess over which is to be normal onto NTs who actually don't think about this stuff at all.



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11 Feb 2022, 7:14 pm

NT is just a placeholder name for 'common' with shared assumptions and all that.

And they're only as healthy as the society they're adjusting to, and as health is also shared by the consensus on how one adjusts to said society.

And... What of a society that makes generations of trauma, environmentally induced dysfunction, destructive habits and massively gaslighted? :lol:
Not only the unintentional aspects, but also deem acceptable, deliberate and encouraged?


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Last edited by Edna3362 on 11 Feb 2022, 7:17 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Joe90
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11 Feb 2022, 7:17 pm

Quote:
Sorry, you are entitled to your opinion but this is somewhat distorted.

Normality is like health.NT People don't go around obsessing over "being normal" just like people of average health don't go around obsessing over "being healthy".

If you are "normal" you never think about whether you are normal or not. Just like health. If you aren't sick then nobody thinks whether they are healthy.

Many people do check themselves (for example many women watch their weight/appearance and many men check their muscles or fitness). In the same way people follow social norms and watch what they say or try to impress others in the social circles they move in.

So I think you are projecting what some autistic people obsess over which is to be normal onto NTs who actually don't think about this stuff at all.


Well said.


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11 Feb 2022, 7:26 pm

Dandansson wrote:
Howdy folks!
I have heard some people, mostly people with an ASD diagnosis, say that NT is much a disorder as ASD. I don't really know if I ever came across some good arguments for this view. Some people say that neither NT nor ASD are disorders as it is better to call them conditions.

What would the arguments be for the fact that both NT and ASD are conditions or disorders?
All I know is that people with NT talk about NT issues, people with ASD complain how even NT have issues with theory of mind or that many professionals talk about how the issues presented in ASD can be something that an NT can struggle with, eg communication issues.

Do I even like the term NT? Not really! It's to broad. If ASD includes too many different kinds of people NT includes even more kinds of people.
But the big question have to be: if NT means non-ASD can NT refer to people with only ADHD or people with schizofrenia and so on? Even if we excluded those people NT would be to broad of a category.
Do we really have a definition of NT? We don't even seem to have a good definition of ASD.


"Neurotypical" means just that. Typically wired. Normal. Not a "condition" or disability.

Folks who spout the line that "NTness is a disabling condition" are usually being facetious, and joking. Though often in a constructive way. To show how Aspie traits (like honesty for example) can be made to sound more healthy than NTs (who tend toward being honesty-impaired).