My explanation why some criminal are part of ASD community.

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FranzOren
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02 May 2022, 8:51 am

Most studies say that people with ASD are more likely to be victims than being perpetrators. While that is true, that statement is too broad, people with co-morbid diagnosis of Intellectual Disability and Autism are actually 20 times more likely to be victims than being perpetrators, compare to people who are higher functioning end of the autistic spectrum. Another problem why that statement from most studies is too broad, it is because the diagnostic criteria for Pervasive Developmental Disorders became more broad for the last decade and it was lumped as Autism Spectrum Disorder, and it's broad to the point where even some people with Antisocial Personality Disorder can be considered to have Autism Spectrum Disorder.

A lot of you guys wonder why more criminals happened to have diagnosis of Autism Spectrum Disorder than a decade earlier, it is because the diagnostic criteria for Autism Spectrum Disorder is a lot more broad than it was a decade ago. It was thought that only people with Intellectual Disabilities have Pervasive Developmental Disorder, but after few years, they made the diagnostic criteria for ASD more broad to include people who have symptoms of PDD but without Intellectual Disability, and after few more years, the diagnostic criteria became more broad to include Asperger Syndrome. And In 2013, it was lumped as Autism Spectrum Disorder, and and recently it was lumped as Autism Spectrum Disorder in ICD-11.

It's is true that most people with ASD are more likely to be victims than being perpetrators, but if we get more technical, people who have ASD without Intellectual Disability are more likely to commit crimes than people who are Intellectually Disabled. There are some people with Intellectual Disability that commit crimes, but it's so rare, because the diagnostic criteria for Intellectual Disability includes problem with Intellectual and adaptive functioning. People with ASD without Intellectual Disability are able to to neurotypical tasks and some people with ASD without Intellectual Disability are able to defend themselves than people Intellectual Disability.

Since, the diagnostic criteria for Autism because more broad for the last decade, I wonder if I am correct that if there are some crimes that with ASD without Intellectual Disabilities are more likely to commit, but due to lack of social skills and repetitive behaviors.

You guys are wondering why more criminals happened to have ASD than a decade ago, it's because the diagnostic criteria for Pervasive Developmental Disorders became more broad for the last decade and lumped as Autism Spectrum Disorder in recent years.

There are a lot of people that say it's impossible to have Antisocial Personality Disorder and ASD, but the problem is that the diagnostic criteria for ASD is much more broad than a decade ago, that it's is considered possible to have co-morbidity diagnosis of Antisocial Personality Disorder and ASD.

Now, you know why more criminals happened to have ASD than a decade ago.



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02 May 2022, 9:22 am

Makes sense. Still, I think the only reason why we even have to discuss it is because ASD is the "other" in the view of the majority.

For instance, white men are far more likely to commit violent crimes than are people of any other gender or any other race, and yet, because white men are subconsciously thought of as "the default" type of human in our society, no one ascribes any form of association between being violent and being a white man. The same cannot be said for "othered" peoples.

Back to the topic at hand: If one autistic teen commits a crime, everyone immediately questions whether this means that autistic people are criminals. If one NT teen commits a crime, no one, literally no one, questions whether neurotypical people are criminals.



FranzOren
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02 May 2022, 9:32 am

It's a double standard issue, but scientific studies fixes that issue.



jimmy m
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02 May 2022, 10:41 am

I think that one of the problems here is that there is another class that will sometimes claim to be autistic when they are the direct opposite. These are psychopaths.

A psychopath is a person who is incapable of empathizing with others, takes no responsibility for their actions, and feels no remorse or guilt for hurting others. Most psychopaths are grandiose, meaning that they consider themselves superior to others. Psychopaths are characterized as being remorseless, narcissistic, usually violent, and also may appear to be a "blank slate" when in the depths of their pathology.

I think that society will sometimes mix up these two groups. Aspies in general are not criminals. If we do commit a crime, it is generally unintentional.


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FranzOren
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02 May 2022, 11:00 am

jimmy m wrote:
I think that one of the problems here is that there is another class that will sometimes claim to be autistic when they are the direct opposite. These are psychopaths.

A psychopath is a person who is incapable of empathizing with others, takes no responsibility for their actions, and feels no remorse or guilt for hurting others. Most psychopaths are grandiose, meaning that they consider themselves superior to others. Psychopaths are characterized as being remorseless, narcissistic, usually violent, and also may appear to be a "blank slate" when in the depths of their pathology.

I think that society will sometimes mix up these two groups. Aspies in general are not criminals. If we do commit a crime, it is generally unintentional.



Here were it gets ugly, it's possible for psychopathy to be co-morbid with ASD, but it's not common, because studies say that people with ASD are more likely to be victims than being perpetrators, the only problem is that the diagnostic criteria for ASD is much more broad than decades ago, and I question if there are some crimes that people with HFA are more likely to commit, specifically crimes only related to lack of social skills and repetitive behaviors. Crimes with intent to harm is a symptom of psychopathy.

I also don't think that neurotypicals are more likely to commit crimes than psychopaths, even though psychopathy is a mental illness. I would be more safe to be with neurotypicals and autistic criminals without psychopathy, because they have guilt and remorse.



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02 May 2022, 11:02 am

A simpler explanation, in syllogistic form:

a. Some people commit crimes.
b. Aspies are people.
: : Some aspies commit crimes.



FranzOren
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02 May 2022, 11:41 am

That's also true, it's because we are humans as well, but I have been wondering if I am correct if there are some people with ASD that are more likely to commit crimes, but their motive is meant to be harmless, and their symptoms of ASD comes if question to be completely culpable for their actions, and it usually involves crimes related to social boundaries.

Misunderstanding nonverbal cues and mixed messages can cause a person with ASD to think at they consent to sex, when they did not, but had a reasonable belief that they consent to sex, and that mistake can happen constantly. That should be treated completely different than tape.

Stalkish behavior without motive to harm can be due to not understanding that a person wants to be left alone.

Sometimes having meltdown and having sensory overload can lead to volent behavior, in the belief that you don't feel safe at the moment and are overwhelmed by the environment and stimulation.

The problem is that motives of crimes should be looked at by case by case, and question if the person had mens rea to be charged with crimes that are being charged with and if it should be lowered if the crime a person committed did not have mens rea to be completely culpable for their actions.



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02 May 2022, 11:45 am

Sutton's Law: When diagnosing a medical condition, one should first consider the obvious.

Fnord's Corollary: When giving an explanation, one should first state the obvious.

Renault's Corollary: When investigating a crime, one should first round up the usual suspects.



Last edited by Fnord on 02 May 2022, 11:47 am, edited 1 time in total.

kraftiekortie
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02 May 2022, 11:47 am

Why are you so obsessed with the idea of Aspies and criminality? I really don't get it.

There are people on the Spectrum who might have criminal tendencies----but so do non-autistic people.

There is NO DOUBT in my mind that criminality, psychopathy, sociopathy, and all the rest, are not specific features of Asperger's, or of Autism.

What is it that keep you so focused on this idea? Have you had personal experience with this?



FranzOren
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02 May 2022, 11:59 am

It's not that I am obsessed, although forensic psychology is part of my restricted interests, it's more that a lot of you guys wonder why more criminal happens to have ASD than many years ago, it's because the diagnostic criteria for Pervasive Developmental Disorders became more broad for the last decade, and lumped as Autism Spectrum Disorder in recent years. There are a lot of people that think that it's impossible for psychopathy to be co-morbid with Autism Spectrum Disorder, but it's not true, it's definitely possible for psychopathy to be co-morbid with ASD and it needs to be studied more.

It's is true that people with ASD are more likely to be victims than being perpetrators, but if we be very technical, people with HFA are more likely to commit crimes than people with Intellectual Disability, because people with HFA have more intellect and adaptive skills, and some people with HFA are able to defend themselves.

I mentioned lack of social skills can highten the risk for petty criminal behaviors, the ones without mens rea intent. There needs to be a clear difference between less serious crimes to more serious ones.



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02 May 2022, 12:06 pm

FranzOren wrote:
. . . it's more that a lot of you guys wonder why more criminal happens to have ASD than many years ago . . .
"A lot of you"?  I have never seen that.

It is more like: "Why do some people use autism to excuse a crime as if playing a "Get Out Of Jail Free Card?"



kraftiekortie
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02 May 2022, 12:22 pm

Like you said, it's because the diagnostic criteria for autism has expanded greatly since the 1994 publication of the DSM IV.

But to say that criminality is a specific feature of ASD----is wrong.

It's like saying criminality is a specific feature of Homo sapiens

It's just a false idea-----and it upsets some people here.

Just like this thing about people with ASD having a shorter lifespan than "normal" folks.



FranzOren
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02 May 2022, 12:33 pm

Not all criminality, there are some crimes without motive to harm, and statistically most people with ASD are more likely to be victims than being perpetrators. I wanted to point out that people with Intellectual Disability are even more likely to be victims than being perpetrators.

Using mental health and neurodevelopmental disorders as a legal defense is not a jail free card at all, you are civilly committed until psychologist determine that you are not a danger to yourself and to others.



kraftiekortie
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02 May 2022, 12:37 pm

Of course they are more likely to be victims-----and so are people with ASD who don't have an intellectual disability.

Actually.....once people attain adulthood, it is less common than in pre-adulthood for people to be either perpetrators, or victims.

I've only been a victim a few times in my adult life----and never have been a perpetrator.

This sort of discussion leads to people diagnosed with ASD believe that being a psychopath, a perpetrator, or a criminal, is a prominent feature of their diagnosis. And this leads to them believing they are flawed human beings, thereby stymying their progress in life.



FranzOren
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02 May 2022, 12:49 pm

I did talk about my worries about misunderstanding nonverbal cues and mixed messages when it comes to consent, leading to a false belief that I consented. That part is just a scenario, but I am worried that I could consistently make that mistake without meaning to.

I had stalkish behavior without motive to harm, because I don't understand that a person wants to be left alone, unless they give be clear and firm explanation that my behavior is inappropriate, I stop and apologize.

I also talked about here that historically, I become violent and very stressed when I am in an completely different environment, in the moment I don't feel safe.

Those are 3 types of situations I am talking about, but statistically we are more likely to be victims of more serious crimes than being perpetrators.



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02 May 2022, 2:11 pm

Sensationalist media that thrives implying a link.


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