Is it possible to learn or develope a "theory of mind&q

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myczarina
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09 Aug 2007, 8:28 pm

My question is simply that I read a theory of mind test (others may have heard of) where one "person" places an object in a basket then leaves the room. A 2nd "person" then comes and puts the object in a box. The question is then asked "Where would the 1st person look for the item?"
I answered instinctively "in the box" but then I confused myself and had to think about it for a moment but I recognized that it had been moved while they were gone.
This is just confusing to me. I know I have trouble understanding people's point of view and assuming they know/feel how I do. But my reaction was more of a logical evaluation of something I was reading, so I don't know how that works.



2ukenkerl
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09 Aug 2007, 8:45 pm

Actually, everyone here seems to understand it even if some at one point didn't think about it. As for me? I am remembering parts of my life I never really thought too much about. Who knows, maybe I DID have a problem with TOM. Then again, I intuitively understand things others don't, and vice versa. Although I understand TOM, etc... Some things DO seem more natural. WHO KNOWS?



myczarina
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09 Aug 2007, 8:56 pm

I think I understand what you're trying to say.
I wish I had been tested when I was a child as I know I am more aware now than I was then. i.e. I have come to realize other people don't think and know and feel as I do when they tell me! Otherwise, I will just start talking about something and irritate my sister [an NT] who has no idea what I am talking about. lol
Also, I have noticed I just assume another person's feelings or how they will react to something.

Any other thoughts on this?



krex
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09 Aug 2007, 9:09 pm

My thoughts on this are.....I dont read minds or nonverbal communication.I have read that 80%? of NT communication is nonverbal.So,how the heck am I going to know what they want,feel,think?My values and desires are different then many NT's.I have to assume they want what I want(even if I know logically they may not)because they wont directly tell me and...I dont read minds or body language!!!Whats an poor aspie to do.(lol)It seems to set us up as looking stupid or unsympathetic"because they dont know how to directly say what they feel,think or want.And this makes me flawed.... 8O


My experience with NT theory of Mind is that it's no better then mine when it comes to understanding me.How many aspies on here have been asked....

Whats wrong
why are you so sad
why are you so angry
did your dog die


Or had Nt's do something for us we never asked for dont want and then they get mad because we dont like it(or fake liking it).
Or think that we would feel better if we forced ourselves to"get out of the house more and socialize(and this also comes from the so called "professional" psychologist,most wh have no clue about AS or interest in learning.

So,yes I may have some ToM issues but so does every human I know who is trying to understand another,gender,culture,religion, planet or species.We arent very good at is as a whole as far as I can see.The whole pinning of ToM on ASers specifically is simply another way that they have labeled us as "other" without seeing the same thing in themselves.Thats my theory,anyway.


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2ukenkerl
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09 Aug 2007, 9:23 pm

krex wrote:
My thoughts on this are.....I dont read minds or nonverbal communication.I have read that 80%? of NT communication is nonverbal.So,how the heck am I going to know what they want,feel,think?My values and desires are different then many NT's.I have to assume they want what I want(even if I know logically they may not)because they wont directly tell me and...I dont read minds or body language!!!Whats an poor aspie to do.(lol)It seems to set us up as looking stupid or unsympathetic"because they dont know how to directly say what they feel,think or want.And this makes me flawed.... 8O


My experience with NT theory of Mind is that it's no better then mine when it comes to understanding me.How many aspies on here have been asked....

Whats wrong
why are you so sad
why are you so angry
did your dog die


Or had Nt's do something for us we never asked for dont want and then they get mad because we dont like it(or fake liking it).
Or think that we would feel better if we forced ourselves to"get out of the house more and socialize(and this also comes from the so called "professional" psychologist,most wh have no clue about AS or interest in learning.

So,yes I may have some ToM issues but so does every human I know who is trying to understand another,gender,culture,religion, planet or species.We arent very good at is as a whole as far as I can see.The whole pinning of ToM on ASers specifically is simply another way that they have labeled us as "other" without seeing the same thing in themselves.Thats my theory,anyway.


Frankly, I don't think there is ANYTHING wrong with me, or most of you, If the environment was better, and people were more considerate, and more precise, the world would be a paradise and we would excel. NTs represent most of the people, and see our differences as a "disability"! We don't fall into their idea of order, so it is out of or improper(dis) order.



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09 Aug 2007, 9:31 pm

Any significant human relational understand I've had to filter through my mind. I don't automatically have an idea of how people will react. I need to experience it first hand... and change my model of the world.

Without those experiences... I just assume everyone is going to react kinda like I do. As I've gotten older my model has gotten more and more complex so I can understand and relate and even appreciate it when people act differently than I do.

The only problem I've had... is that I'm very stubborn. If people tell me how they act... I either don't believe them or get bitter that people are different than how I imagined. The best learning tool... is to just realize people are different... go out there and try and make mistakes. The more mistakes and experiences I've gotten... the more complex my model has become... and the more ability I have socially.

The biggest problem is that these mistakes aren't looked at too highly... and I have developed much anxiety because of it. I get paralyzed when something important needs to happen...and I have no idea what I am supposed to do.


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Aradford
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10 Aug 2007, 12:42 pm

It is possible to learn and develop into whatever you want if you are WILLING to and dedicate yourself to it.



10 Aug 2007, 1:07 pm

The person would look in the basket because he doesn't know the other person took it and put it in the box. How do I know? Because I would look in the basket thinking it's still there. No way would I know it's been moved unless I saw it happening.
It's all based on me for me to know how other people would feel and think or do. If I don't know how I would feel or act or do, then I wouldn't know what the other person would do or think or feel.