What does "lack of eye contact" refers to?
CockneyRebel
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20 Oct 2022, 12:32 pm
I struggle to give eye-contact. I can be very shifty-eyed. I don't like the fact that many people see lack of eye-contact as a lack of interest or dishonesty. I hated growing up in the 80s. I remember my dad demanding eye-contact when he was angry. That is the very reason that I still struggle with eye-contact to this day.
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The Family Enigma
20 Oct 2022, 2:14 pm
Oh yeah I remember it too, except that it was probably my grandma (mom's mom) rather than my dad.
But it didn't affect me because, in my mind, it wasn't a punishment. The punishment was either if they beat me or if they tell me to stand in a corner, or they deprive me of something, or some other *action*. But if they are just telling me how bad I am, that is not action, that is just words. Thus, not a punishment.
Now, there were *some* things I would get upset about if told. Not because its punishment but because I cared about their opinion of me with regards to those certain things. But then again, it was "some" things and not others. If I was being told off for things that I don't care about, then I wouldn't get upset. On the contrary, I might even laugh.
Well, as it happens, in 90% of cases the things I was told off about were the ones that I didn't care about. That's because when it comes to things that I *did* care about, I would make sure to hide them. And if I won't do a good job hiding them, then my parents would hide the fact that they noticed, in order not to hurt me.
Now, if I were actually punished, then yes I would get upset no matter what I am being punished for. Because being punished amounts to being weak, as in, "I couldn't defend myself" (if its beating) or inferior, as in, "it went on a record that I stood in a corner", for example.
But like I said, when it comes to just talking, I didn't view talking as a punishment. And since being asked to look in the eyes is part of talking, too (as in, making sure the conversation is honest), I didn't view it as a punishment either.
Sometimes I feel like that's the reason things are so hard for me as an adult: the rest of the world is punishing me for all the stuff my parents haven't.
20 Oct 2022, 11:38 pm
I think that lack of interest and dishonesty often take a backseat to lack of confidence and skittishness. Prior to my diagnosis, I used to think that when people avoided eye contact it was primarily the result of insecurity, poor self-esteem, a fearful or skittish nature, being easily intimidated. I never saw it as dishonesty, though I also DID see it as lack of interest.
If you want to improve your eye contact, remind yourself that giving good eye contact here and there (doesn't have to be a locked-on stare) projects confidence and control, self-assuredness. Nobody wants to be seen as wispy.
21 Oct 2022, 12:55 am
Seconded. I'd go further and suggest that a locked-on stare may be counter-productive in some cultures and situations. But I think that a bit of it, even just glancing vaguely in the other person's direction from time to time, often warms the other person up. It's hard for me to know what I do these days, probably because my mind is usually processing other things about the encounter, and I don't do very much "pure" socialising, a lot of my social bonding comes from performing tasks with others (which I generally find easier) so the eyes have to be looking at those things.
Sweetleaf
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21 Oct 2022, 1:29 am
But still, from my perspective, if I didn't have eye contact i would know it. After all, aspies who have trouble with eye contact are saying they feel physically uncomfortable making one, to the point that they have to fake it by looking at the nose instead of the eyes. I don't feel physically uncomfortable. The only reason I wouldn't make an eye contact is if I find my own thoughts more interesting than what the person has to say (which I admit happens sometimes) but then I won't bother trying to fake it would I? If the conversation is interesting enough for me to pay attention, I won't have any trouble making an eye contact.
ly.
I mean one teacher mentioned to my mom that sometimes it looked like I was looking straight through them and did not always pay attention well. Because yeah once they said the interesting part I was just lost in my own head and also would miss the instructions on whatever assainment we had so I'd be the kid going up to the teacher to basically ask 'wait what are we doing right now, I missed the promt', that said I probably have ADD along with my autism and I am working on figuring out a plan to adress that, but well good luck focusing with that. Idk do you also lose things all the time, like important things like your phone, keys and wallet? Or lighters if you smoke weed or cigarettes...lol.
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21 Oct 2022, 2:48 pm
"LOOK AT ME WHEN I'M TALKING TO YOU!"
Right?
I can't help thinking of this whenever I hear about people demanding eye contact.
Trigger warning: video contains violence and strong language.
https://invidious.snopyta.org/watch?v=O31rBYqYkuQ
Autistalien777
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23 Oct 2022, 10:20 am
This is my own perspective on the eye contact thing. The lack of “eye contact” refers to a certain focus in communication. The focus is on the information - not on the meaningless and unnecessary cues (eye contact, unnecessary bodily gestures) that distract you from the actual message / information. Autistic people focus on WHAT you say, not on HOW you say it. Humans are the opposite. This is because autistic people care about the actual message / information and not the things that distract you from it (eye contact…). Society has socially engineered human beings to only look at and value HOW something is being said… so that they miss WHAT is actually being said - by being distracted with things like eye contact, hand gestures, body gestures etc. If you focus on those things, you will be distracted from the real intent or actual message of the other person. So that humans will be easier manipulated by their rulers who take advantage of humans tendencies to only look at HOW something is being said rather than on WHAT is actually being communicated.
There is a ret*d saying on your planet and among you humans which goes: “It does not matter WHAT you say, only HOW you say it. “ But to the autistic person, he knows that it is the complete opposite that is the actual truth of communication.
The autistic person cares only about the content (on the WHAT) of communication – not on the HOW of communication. He cares only about WHAT is being said and not on HOW it is said.
To humans it is the complete opposite. This is why autistic people are seen by humans as socially unengaged and aloof when communicating – as being antisocial.
The true purpose of communication to an autistic person is not to be socially engaged but to convey only the most vital piece of information relevant to solving the situation or problem at hand – nothing else.
Autistic people simply do not like to waste unnecessary energy or time on things that are not directly related to the message or information or problem at hand such as unnecessary eye contact and social engagement beyond what is absolutely necessary to get the main point or message across as quickly and effeciently as possible.
The autistic person only says what is most necessary to get the point across and avoids all the other unnecessary faculties or details of – to a human – fully functional social interaction (such as unnecessary eye contact, bodily gestures beyond what is necessary etc).
Human beings, however, are the opposite.
Human beings have a saying on their planet which goes against the natural order of the universe:
“it doesn’t matter WHAT you say but HOW you say it.”
This saying is generally accepted as true for these worthless human beings and is the basis for all human interaction and rhetorics. This is what makes you social in a human world and it is also the retardation of communication that slows down the progress and evolution of this worthless planet.
Human beings respect and listen to you not so much based on WHAT you actually have to say but more importantly on HOW you say something. This is a ret*d form of communication to the rest of the universe.
If you say f**k you with a smile, you are respected, liked and admired by most humans – independent on the true content or overall intention of your message.
You could be spreading a message of hate but be seen as a respectable and loving person because you were calm, collected and / or smiling while saying it.
This form of communcation is ret*d and deceptive in nature and why autistic people do not care about using it. Focus on what I say and not on how I say it, is the autistic motto.
Why is the HOW more important than the WHAT for human beings in communication?
This is because human beings have been programmed since birth to only look at and focus on the outside expression of a communicated message so that they always miss the inside expression (true intentionality / information) of a communicated message.
Humans have been socially engineered this way by the educational system and by the powers that be on this planet so they can be more easily deceived and exploited by their rulers – who never ever say what they mean. They always say one thing and do another and humans fall for it all the time because of HOW they are saying it.
In rhetoric class you were all programmed and indoctrinated to completely ignore what is actually being said in favour of only focusing and giving attention to distractions and meaningless cues such as how you use eye contact, facial expressions, hand gestures, body gestures to make the point across…focus on everything but the actual message and intention of the speaker. To the autistic person, this is all stupid…
To the autistic person, it is the WHAT that should be the focus of communication and not the HOW.
This is why autistic people communicate in a way that to humans seem cold, aloof, unengaged, indifferent, absent minded, uninvolved, distanced and / or even unempathic. They are focused only on trying to solve the problem and conveying the message – not to socially engage in the process. To the autistic person, you need to get to the point as quickly as possible and with as little unnecessary distractions as possible.
Because autistic people do not see it necessary to involve unnecessary body language, eye contact and gestures in the communication of a thought or an idea more than what is absolutely necessary to get the most important point or message across for that particular situation or problem. So they seem absent, cold, indifferent and aloof to most humans.
These other forms of communication are not seen as necessary for the autistic person but are rather seen as being for the most part an unnecessary distraction to what is actually being communicated and said. These detract you from the actual message.
It is only the words and the contents of the word (information) that is important and should be the main focus of attention in communication to the autistic person. The rest is an unnecessary vaste of time and energy and only serve to detract you from the actual message and its importance.
The narcissist (which is the complete opposite of the autistic and who is the human prototype in its most extreme form) takes advantage of this tendency in humans to always look at the HOW rather than on the WHAT of communication. This human tendency is a perfect breeding ground for the powerhungry narcissist, corrupt leader or politician to strive in society and win the trust and influence of human beings.
The narcissist (the extreme human) loves to take advantage of humans overall ret*d tendency to only look at HOW something is being said rather than on WHAT is being said. This is how the narcissist deceives and gets its trust from other human beings. This is how the narcissist wins the trust and influence over the worthless human sheep. Donald Trump could be intentionally insulting or bullying the audience in a calm and sensible way and still be looked at as a caring human being – simply because he said it with a smile or without cursing or using profanity.
To a human being living in a human dysfunctional society, the norm of a functional communication is that the more unnecessary faculties and varieties of expression you use when communicating an idea (variety of body language, eye contact, gestures etc…) , the more social you are. But to the autistic person, these forms and varieties of expression are looked at as being unnecessary for the most part. So the autistic person is seen as dysfunctional in his one sided, monotone, to the point, way of communication.
The autistic person only expresses what is necessary for you to get the information or message of what is being conveyed – nothing else.
The autistic person has no need for greater variety of expression beyond what is most necessary for you to get the message – he is not your typical small talker.
But to a human, this is seen as a very cold, aloof and unempathic style of communication.
The autistic person focuses on the message and the information rather than on “being social” (ret*d). Autistic people only speak when they have something important to say – it is concerned with information and not with being “social. “.
24 Oct 2022, 12:08 pm
Human beings, however, are the opposite.
Human beings have a saying on their planet which goes against the natural order of the universe:
“it doesn’t matter WHAT you say but HOW you say it.”
Human beings respect and listen to you not so much based on WHAT you actually have to say but more importantly on HOW you say something. This is a ret*d form of communication to the rest of the universe.
If you say f**k you with a smile, you are respected, liked and admired by most humans – independent on the true content or overall intention of your message.
You could be spreading a message of hate but be seen as a respectable and loving person because you were calm, collected and / or smiling while saying it.
The narcissist (which is the complete opposite of the autistic and who is the human prototype in its most extreme form) takes advantage of this tendency in humans to always look at the HOW rather than on the WHAT of communication. This human tendency is a perfect breeding ground for the powerhungry narcissist, corrupt leader or politician to strive in society and win the trust and influence of human beings.
That explains a heck of a lot! That must be why people look at me suspiciously, or laugh or get angry at what I say. They are trying to find some kind of meaning in what I'm saying but there isn't one. I'm just giving information.
This information might help me communicate better!
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ASPartOfMe
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24 Oct 2022, 1:26 pm
Human beings, however, are the opposite.
Human beings have a saying on their planet which goes against the natural order of the universe:
“it doesn’t matter WHAT you say but HOW you say it.”
Human beings respect and listen to you not so much based on WHAT you actually have to say but more importantly on HOW you say something. This is a ret*d form of communication to the rest of the universe.
If you say f**k you with a smile, you are respected, liked and admired by most humans – independent on the true content or overall intention of your message.
You could be spreading a message of hate but be seen as a respectable and loving person because you were calm, collected and / or smiling while saying it.
The narcissist (which is the complete opposite of the autistic and who is the human prototype in its most extreme form) takes advantage of this tendency in humans to always look at the HOW rather than on the WHAT of communication. This human tendency is a perfect breeding ground for the powerhungry narcissist, corrupt leader or politician to strive in society and win the trust and influence of human beings.
That explains a heck of a lot! That must be why people look at me suspiciously, or laugh or get angry at what I say. They are trying to find some kind of meaning in what I'm saying but there isn't one. I'm just giving information.
This information might help me communicate better!
This article discusses the double empathy theory of Autistic - Neurotypical miscommunication
Heini Natri
A number of recent empirical studies have examined how neurotypicals perceive and judge autistics, shedding light on the social barriers faced by autistics in a world built for neurotypicals: Allistic peers are less likely to interact with autistic people because of immediate and unconscious negative judgments that are based purely on social communication style, and not substance. Autistic people are also often perceived by neurotypicals as deceptive or lacking credibility.
It is obvious how this bias and negative judgment can lead to discrimination, exclusion, and bullying, negatively affecting autistic people’s lives and wellbeing
DSM-5 diagnostic criteria for autism spectrum disorder (ASD) emphasize “persistent deficits in social communication and social interaction.” However, recent studies clearly demonstrate that instead of exhibiting deficiencies, autistic people have a distinct mode of social communication.
A study investigating interpersonal rapport among autistic, mixed, and non-autistic pairs shows that neurotype-matched pairs report higher levels of rapport than mixed autistic-allistic pairs. A further study connects this to specific social signals: autistic people engage in less mutual gaze and backchanneling (e.g., nods and “mmhm”) than allistics, and mutual gaze is connected to ratings of rapport in mixed and non-autistic pairs, but not in autistic pairs. This recapitulates the finding that the negative impression formed by neurotypicals is connected to communication style and not substance.
Moreover, information transfer between autistic people is highly efficient and does not differ from neurotypicals, supporting the model of distinct modes of social communication as opposed to a deficit: just as there are no major communication barriers between most neurotypicals, there are no communication issues between most autistic people.
These studies support the Double Empathy Problem—a framework that describes the mismatch between autistic and allistic social communication. Double Empathy Problem suggests that “autistic people have difficulty fitting into society not just because they misunderstand others but also because they are misunderstood by others.”
While autistic people are forced to understand and predict neurotypical behavior, allistics are remarkably bad at empathizing with autistic people. Inability to empathize can translate to a lack of compassion towards autistics and contribute to the pathologization of autistic traits. This pathologization has led to interventions that focus solely on suppressing behaviors that are considered odd or aberrant by neurotypicals. In fact, some commonly used autism interventions, such as Applied Behavior Analysis (ABA), have been found to be both ineffective and abusive, inflicting trauma on those subjected to them.
The autism treatment market in the US is estimated at $2 billion and is predicted to continue to grow in the future, largely due to the increase in the number of ABA programs across the country. This is despite the lack of evidence of long-term efficacy, lack of research on non-speaking autistics, and the failure of researchers to report adverse events.
Often included in behavioral modification programs, social skills training (SST) curricula aim to teach autistics to imitate neurotypical behavior and social communication style and are based on the flawed view that autistic social communication is disordered. SST approaches have been criticized for their shaky theoretical basis and lack of convincing empirical support, as well as for their harmfulness by inhibiting authenticity and contributing to the stigma associated with autism.
Interventions should be safe and evidence-based, and the fact that approaches such as ABA and SST are still considered the gold standard reflects a wider problem and lack of accountability in psychiatry and clinical psychology.
The world punishes autistic people for displaying their autistic traits, leading to masking even without interventions. Being rejected, marginalized, and receiving the constant message that everything that is intrinsic to them is wrong or unacceptable is a continuous source of trauma: society rarely produces non-traumatized autistics.
The pathologization of and the disdain towards autistic traits and people has led to the development of flawed and harmful theories, many of which have since been debunked but still continue to cause harm by contributing to stigma and dehumanization. Most notably, the idea that autistic people lack theory of mind
All these issues contribute to the disenfranchisement of and health disparities affecting autistic people:
As autistic people are often misunderstood and misinterpreted by neurotypicals, it is crucial that the mental health care of autistic individuals is neurodiversity-affirming, patient-led, anti-authoritarian, respects patient autonomy, and allows the autistic person to live as their authentic self.
Peer support and mentoring can be particularly helpful for newly diagnosed autistics: in a recent study, newly identified autistics attending a peer-led program were particularly appreciative of the autistic-led nature of the program, the diversity within the program, and reported that the program helped them develop a more positive outlook on autism.
Additionally, training programs targeted at neurotypicals can help increase knowledge of and reduce the stigma surrounding autism, speaking to the importance of, for example, workplace training in creating and cultivating a healthy, neuroaffirming environment.
Despite all the recent advances in understanding the two distinct modes of social communication, nearly all autism studies, particularly in biomedicine, psychiatry, and genetics, still frame the work around the deficiency model. Unfortunately, most mental health practitioners do not know how to differentiate between neurological differences, psychiatric states, personality traits, and trauma, and have a poor understanding of the complex interactions within and between these distinct layers of complexity and the environment, emotions, and behavior. When researchers and clinicians try to understand autism and autistic behavior in the context of neurotypical psychology, they will inevitably make incorrect assumptions, leading to ineffective and even harmful interventions.
Moreover, the DSM-5 criteria for ASD and the diagnostic assessment are based purely on behavior, and trying to infer neurological variation from behavior is an approach that is deeply flawed and unreliable.
Acceptance begets confidence, and eventually, this will lead to the empowerment and better wellbeing of all neurominorities.
I want to thank Rachel Zanoni for originating the idea of The Privilege Problem and for comments on a previous version of this essay.
Bolding=mine
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DSM 5: Autism Spectrum Disorder, DSM IV: Aspergers Moderate Severity
“My autism is not a superpower. It also isn’t some kind of god-forsaken, endless fountain of suffering inflicted on my family. It’s just part of who I am as a person”. - Sara Luterman
24 Oct 2022, 2:22 pm
There is a ret*d saying on your planet and among you humans which goes: “It does not matter WHAT you say, only HOW you say it. “ But to the autistic person, he knows that it is the complete opposite that is the actual truth of communication.
The autistic person cares only about the content (on the WHAT) of communication – not on the HOW of communication. He cares only about WHAT is being said and not on HOW it is said.
To humans it is the complete opposite. This is why autistic people are seen by humans as socially unengaged and aloof when communicating – as being antisocial.
The true purpose of communication to an autistic person is not to be socially engaged but to convey only the most vital piece of information relevant to solving the situation or problem at hand – nothing else.
Autistic people simply do not like to waste unnecessary energy or time on things that are not directly related to the message or information or problem at hand such as unnecessary eye contact and social engagement beyond what is absolutely necessary to get the main point or message across as quickly and effeciently as possible.
The autistic person only says what is most necessary to get the point across and avoids all the other unnecessary faculties or details of – to a human – fully functional social interaction (such as unnecessary eye contact, bodily gestures beyond what is necessary etc).
Human beings, however, are the opposite.
Human beings have a saying on their planet which goes against the natural order of the universe:
“it doesn’t matter WHAT you say but HOW you say it.”
This saying is generally accepted as true for these worthless human beings and is the basis for all human interaction and rhetorics. This is what makes you social in a human world and it is also the retardation of communication that slows down the progress and evolution of this worthless planet.
Human beings respect and listen to you not so much based on WHAT you actually have to say but more importantly on HOW you say something. This is a ret*d form of communication to the rest of the universe.
If you say f**k you with a smile, you are respected, liked and admired by most humans – independent on the true content or overall intention of your message.
You could be spreading a message of hate but be seen as a respectable and loving person because you were calm, collected and / or smiling while saying it.
This form of communcation is ret*d and deceptive in nature and why autistic people do not care about using it. Focus on what I say and not on how I say it, is the autistic motto.
Why is the HOW more important than the WHAT for human beings in communication?
This is because human beings have been programmed since birth to only look at and focus on the outside expression of a communicated message so that they always miss the inside expression (true intentionality / information) of a communicated message.
Humans have been socially engineered this way by the educational system and by the powers that be on this planet so they can be more easily deceived and exploited by their rulers – who never ever say what they mean. They always say one thing and do another and humans fall for it all the time because of HOW they are saying it.
In rhetoric class you were all programmed and indoctrinated to completely ignore what is actually being said in favour of only focusing and giving attention to distractions and meaningless cues such as how you use eye contact, facial expressions, hand gestures, body gestures to make the point across…focus on everything but the actual message and intention of the speaker. To the autistic person, this is all stupid…
To the autistic person, it is the WHAT that should be the focus of communication and not the HOW.
This is why autistic people communicate in a way that to humans seem cold, aloof, unengaged, indifferent, absent minded, uninvolved, distanced and / or even unempathic. They are focused only on trying to solve the problem and conveying the message – not to socially engage in the process. To the autistic person, you need to get to the point as quickly as possible and with as little unnecessary distractions as possible.
Because autistic people do not see it necessary to involve unnecessary body language, eye contact and gestures in the communication of a thought or an idea more than what is absolutely necessary to get the most important point or message across for that particular situation or problem. So they seem absent, cold, indifferent and aloof to most humans.
These other forms of communication are not seen as necessary for the autistic person but are rather seen as being for the most part an unnecessary distraction to what is actually being communicated and said. These detract you from the actual message.
It is only the words and the contents of the word (information) that is important and should be the main focus of attention in communication to the autistic person. The rest is an unnecessary vaste of time and energy and only serve to detract you from the actual message and its importance.
The narcissist (which is the complete opposite of the autistic and who is the human prototype in its most extreme form) takes advantage of this tendency in humans to always look at the HOW rather than on the WHAT of communication. This human tendency is a perfect breeding ground for the powerhungry narcissist, corrupt leader or politician to strive in society and win the trust and influence of human beings.
The narcissist (the extreme human) loves to take advantage of humans overall ret*d tendency to only look at HOW something is being said rather than on WHAT is being said. This is how the narcissist deceives and gets its trust from other human beings. This is how the narcissist wins the trust and influence over the worthless human sheep. Donald Trump could be intentionally insulting or bullying the audience in a calm and sensible way and still be looked at as a caring human being – simply because he said it with a smile or without cursing or using profanity.
To a human being living in a human dysfunctional society, the norm of a functional communication is that the more unnecessary faculties and varieties of expression you use when communicating an idea (variety of body language, eye contact, gestures etc…) , the more social you are. But to the autistic person, these forms and varieties of expression are looked at as being unnecessary for the most part. So the autistic person is seen as dysfunctional in his one sided, monotone, to the point, way of communication.
The autistic person only expresses what is necessary for you to get the information or message of what is being conveyed – nothing else.
The autistic person has no need for greater variety of expression beyond what is most necessary for you to get the message – he is not your typical small talker.
But to a human, this is seen as a very cold, aloof and unempathic style of communication.
The autistic person focuses on the message and the information rather than on “being social” (ret*d). Autistic people only speak when they have something important to say – it is concerned with information and not with being “social. “.
Well, if aspies only wanted communication in order to obtain technical help or some info, they won't be so upset about being ostracized. Which I am.
When I am obsessing about women looking at me a certain way, I am certainly obsessing about "how they said it" rather than "what they said". I care a lot more about the fact that the "provider of information" is a woman, rather than the information itself.
I do see your point though. Lets say I asked Person A for directions, and Person A didn't smile. Then I came to Person B, asking Person B to explain to me why Person A didn't smile. Then there are two things going on:
a) In case of Person A, I am more concerned about "the how" rather than "the what". I am obsessing why didn't Person A smile, and I don't care so much about the directions that they gave me
b) In case of Person B, I am more concerned about "the what" rather than "the how". I want to hear Person B providing some psychological theory for me (that is, information), but I don't care whether Person B smiles in the process
So if you put the two together, then I am concerned about both the what and the how. What distinguishes me from NT-s is that NT-s are concerned about "the how" in both of the two examples, while I am only concerned about "the how" in Example a.
So when it comes to Example a, both me and NT are worrying about how. But when it comes to Example b, thats when I am about the what and NT is about the how.
Maybe the way NT can be about the how in Example b, is that NT would use it as a way to bond with Person B. As in, Person A will be a "common enemy" that would be a tool to bond with Persson B.
I don't operate this way because I view *myself* as a "common victim" of society at large, which is incompatible with the "common enemy" scenario. And thats why in Example b, I am using Person B as a therapist rather than someone to bond with.
But that just goes to show that society ostracized me and so I respond in the like manner. But that doesn't mean I don't care about bonding. I most certainly do, as Example a illustrates.
25 Oct 2022, 8:30 am
This article discusses the double empathy theory of Autistic - Neurotypical miscommunication
Mad in America hosts blogs by a diverse group of writers. These posts are designed to serve as a public forum for a discussion—broadly speaking—of psychiatry and its treatments. The opinions expressed are the writers’ own.
Heini Natri
thanks for that! Have to say the bolding is a bit rubbish on this site isn't it, I can hardly see it. Not your fault though.
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funeralxempire
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30 Mar 2023, 11:10 pm
"LOOK AT ME WHEN I'M TALKING TO YOU!"
Right?
*glares through their soul*
For some reason when you don't blink or break eye contact once it's even worse than not looking at them.
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