Are NTs illogical? Or do they use different logic to us?

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Better alone than in bad company. I went to watch a movie on my own, and it was awesome. Libraries are best when empty too.

I find having animal companions helpful. They don't care what I say, I can't offend my degus no matter how politically incorrect or boring I might be. They're predictable, they make sense, they don't have mood swings, or hormonal imbalances unless it's the mating season and don't say things just because everyone else is saying them. give them a few seeds, and snacks and they're happy. Plants too. I've never met an offended or pouting plant. They're better company than most people I know.

The NHS isn't a topic that has innocuous points of view. I vehemently disagree with you and I'm not NT. It's a very hot button issue.

NTs do have a different kind of logic. We tend to research and try and find the exact best solution to a problem and become convinced that our way is correct and there can be no other possible solution because of the amount of research we've put into it.

NTs often do less research so it annoys us that they can't see our well researched outcome.

It took me a long time to realise that everyone has a different way to view the world. And more than one option can be a good solution.

That's a good idea, when I move house I might get some pets.

Yes, the NHS is just one example, it isn't always hot topics.

I was saying that very often, when I point out something logical or obvious (not necessarily after doing any research, it's just something I notice), people get upset/angry and go off into a rant about how I've misunderstood and said things I haven't. I suppose they read meanings into words and phrases I use, I dunno.

Often what I point out comes true, as well. I've noticed that a lot: I can point something out, or see where a situation is heading, way before it happens. But other people can't see or don't understand so they get annoyed with me. Then when it actually happens they are embarrassed and say 'I wish I'd listened to you...' It's getting pretty annoying because this occurs to me a lot. I think I'm going to start saying 'I told you so.'

Think this maybe the eventual conclusion that many Aspies come to, as time passes...... Sometimes with great luck and care once in a while you might pick up a friend .that a common interest or series of common interests come about . As with one fellow , am directly supportive of his business interests in very small ways and developed a very light relationship with him , when he needs to debrief about things in his entire life . And having developed a wide frame of reference of misfortunes , And some successes," independantly from anyone else " with 'little support' .Am able to converse well with him. With the addition of couching things in somewhat NT ways of communicating . As he is a independant businessman , Making it work with nobody over him , except with his clients. And me periodically supplying potato chips and beer to his business locations larder. For him and his part time employees. Most formally educated people NTs,Usually it seems I embarass . By merely pointing out the obvious , and they seem to hate those observations unless they are made by their own direct peer circle of people with their own personal interests in mind .
and as kitlily addresses in just her last post here . yes processing facts and past experiences into a sort of foreknowledge that others seem to not get..And then they have to deal with their own consequences, often backfires with NTs because of the fear of the " i told you so factor" which is not my style of dealing with anyone.
And will take my own steps to alter a poorly chosen pathway of someone i care for, or feel alittle kinship to.
Provided it is within my frame of references.To improve their odds of success. Provide my investment is not overly taxing to me, and my health .
Generally it seemed best when i could make it look like it was their own doing or process of fate.
A situation i do actually avoid as i have gotten older .And have no unsuccessful associates as friends anymore .
But have very few of them.

I love the way you (OP) use examples to explain things. I wish more people would, as examples always seem to help me understand what people are talking about online.

Thank you Joe90, I have learned that talking abstractly confuses people so giving an example helps.

Thank you Jakki, I understood all that you wrote. It is SO hard not to say 'I told you so' to people but I try not to, unless they are really obnoxious.

I have often had my ideas stolen e.g. at work meetings when I quietly state a solution to a problem, then someone (usually a man I'd sad to say) overhears my idea and loudly presents the idea as their own. Then he is celebrated and cheered for 'having such a brilliant idea.' When it was mine all along...

OP NTs are not illogical. Just like people on the spectrum, NTs can be logical or illogical. Usually talking about a government or a system that is in control stir up people's emotions because it is usually affecting their life either directly or indirectly(and usually in a way they perceive as bad). My mother is a very logical person but, recently she has had multiple moments where she had to eat her own words (Usually calling someone "stupid" or "ignorant") because she missed a small detail in the entire interaction she had with a person/people. She is NT and I would say has the same issues regarding interacting with others.

My question is this: What kind of body language or "vibe" for lack of a better word do you give off? If it's a "Know-it-all" or "superior" attitude then people may not be mad at what you said but, how you said it and the underlying message that your tone and body language gives which are for example: "Wow how could you not know this? It's so simple!" which in turn makes them angry because you are indirectly calling them stupid or something to that effect(or that is what they think you are doing, which you might be unintentionally). If you have had multiple interactions with people and the same outcome happens over and over again, is it the people around you OR is it you? Could be a combination of both. I say this because you said this happens to you a lot so maybe some self-reflection and analyzing could help you in understanding why this is happening to you.

Yes, as I've said, the NHS situation is just one example of when I've found myself in a weird conversation. It can happen with any subject.

I have absolutely no idea what body language I give off and this 'weird conversation' situation happens online as well as offline so that can't be related to my body language.

I've analysed and self reflected A LOT in my life, it's all I ever do. I am a thinking, reflecting type of person, not physical or active. I'm just really tired of doing that, I just end up in my own head 24/7 and it's just not healthy, I'm trying to get out of my own head.

I used to get on pretty well with people, I think it's just as I've got older, or maybe the village I live in now, has caused these weird situations. I don't know, it's tiring that this always happens.

What do you think about substituting the word impractical for illogical in the question? Sometimes practical is logical and other times logical is practical.

Doing logical, when practical is best, is probably due to an aversion or inability to do practical. An inability to do practical has led to an aversion to do practical in many people.

I imagine NTs see some ND things as impractical. And some NDs may not see that because they lack some ability in seeing from an NT perspective. And it is not like they can necessarily see from other people’s ND perspective either …. although they may have a slight advantage there because they are schooled in it by necessity.

If a NT was to be schooled in it as we are by necessity by some strange twist of fate they would probably see our perspectives as well if not better.

Here is another thing. It is not like a NT can not be logical. I don’t think there is any science to back that up. I could be wrong. But I do believe there are some logical neurotypical people. Let’s say I am right. That would prove that some ND people can’t see other perspectives.

It might be interesting to consider psychopaths who I imagine would not be classified as NT per se. But, they make up a significant percentage of the population.

They generally have people skills. I imagine they are using some sort of manipulative logic without remorse. Maybe there is an opposite end of that spectrum. Maybe ASD is lack of manipulative logic with remorse …. and the other end of the spectrum of psychopaths.

I hope that wasn’t too crazy, dumb or unintelligible.

I didn't really understand what you meant JimJohn, sorry. Certainly due to my own misunderstanding, not your clear explanation.

I used to hold some ideas back for possible patenting, but I've always been trying to meet someone to sell my ideas. We'd never have heard of Seymour Cray if not for John Rollwagen, and I'm not even fussy about credit. Now that I'm retired, I'm publishing ideas to save multi-millions of dollars and the pollution it buys, and I can't get a nibble. I even use examples that are easy to see around us for proof, and links for the engineering proof.
I think that most people just follow the herd. When they think they are being rational, they are usually rationalizing a decision made in the pre-verbal, old parts of the brain. I don't think this is confined to NTs, though. It may be a decent generalization, but I got into a tiff on one of these forums with a licensed electrician who claimed that the way I had my monitor hooked up, I couldn't be using it. All he needed to do was to draw a basic circuit diagram, but all he knew was that he hadn't heard of my trick before.

In a certain work situation, I can testify that "NTs are irrational". But unfortunately workplace anecdotes take a lot of verbiage to explain to folks outside of the company. I will try..

I work for an inventory company. Labor intensive. We go into retail stores with little laser computers and physically count every piece of merchandise in the store.

A particular low level supervisor lady- had an irrational management style. But it actually worked (superficially on the low level that they trust her on) with the presumably NT employees she supervises. It wouldnt work if she ran bigger stores with bigger inventory crews.

The point being that both she, and her minions, are irrational because her minions eat it up her irrational BS. Except me apparently.

The thing she does is this:scapegoat store customers.

We work in stores -while they are open for business. So typically, there are three big populations of folks in the stores at the same time:customers, store associates, and us inventory counters. And not surprisingly customers will ask us "where do you have such and such?" Or "do you still carry such and such?".

So the task is this - you have to politely convey to the customer that (a) they are wasting their time talking to you because you dont know squat about the store and its merchandise, and (b) you have a good reason to not know squat because...you work for separate company than the store.

The way that most of us hit upon to do that is to say something like "I dont actually work for the store. I am outside contractor who counts their inventory". Customers almost without exception 'get it' instantly, and politely apologize, and then - run away from you as fast they can to find a real store employee. Problem solved. No fuss, no muss.

I always assume that customers dont know who we are, and dont know what we are doing, and so I always assume from my first day on the job that customers are likely to mistake us for store employees.

But this supervisor lady seems to think that all customers have pyschic powers and somehow can mystically divine who we are, and therefore deserve to be hated for talking to us. And after working the same length of time for the company - a long fifteen plus years length of time- she STILL thought that. Kind of like being a fifteen year old who is so dumb that you're still surprised that water is wet.

One day she lectured to her crew "I wish that they would allow me to sass customers". And her young greenhorn minions all ate it up.

And I actually spoke to her in private. Told her that I thought that that was unprofessional because "you're supposed to be a leader and set an example, and encouraging your subordinates to hate our clients' customers is unproductive, and is setting a bad example". I pointed out to her that customers are just "doing what you yourself would do...by mistaking you for a store associate".

She disagreed.

And that was the start of a running debate for a couple years.

It finally came to a head when she walked past me in a store -upset - and said to me "DO I LOOK LIKE I WORK HERE?????". Obviously upset that customers had bothered her, and obviously she forgot that I was (apparently) the one person who does NOT commiserate with her about it.

So I responded by saying "well...as matter of fact you DO look like you work here". She said some BS about how customers should know who we are. So I responded by asking "how are they supposed to know that?". All I said.

She responded by ....literally breaking down and crying right in front of me. She looked down to the floor, and began shaking her head and repeating the phrase "I observe...I observe...I observe" while water welled up in her eyes.

That "I observe" stuff is reference to her conviction that customer should all...be Sherlock Holmes and run around the store and observe which uniforms are worn by which group of people...before they speak to anyone.

I backed off and let her cry in private.

I could have ...pointed out the myriad other obvious ways that she was being both stupid and emotionally unstable. But I choose to disengage.

But this one lady (who probably wasnt actually NT. I suspect that she may have been ADHD, though not aspie) isnt what bothers me. What bothers me is that her irrational idiocy actually 'works' to win over most subordinates. Its was a winning strategy that got NTs to think she was cool, or something. And by trying to educate her to be a better leader (be someone whom I could respect) I was actually taking away one of her few 'winning hands'. And thats part of why she broke down and cried. Oh well. Silly me. Who needs rationality? Or leadership skills?

That's easy to understand actually. For a lot of them being wrong, ever, is worse than death, so the trick is - if you're wrong about something that you're really sure you're right about, double-down until the day you die because never admitting you're wrong is as good as being right. You can skate a lot farther and keep getting the false signals (in her case that she's right about the psychic ability of customers to know that a given worker is a vendor or auditor) for as long as you have underlings or people whose meal tickets rely on their agreement and 'playing along to get along'. Those beliefs become sacred and unquestionable, and by the time she started crying it was because some part of her internal edifice was starting to question whether she could keep it up.

The practical thing for me to do would be to take your comment at face value. I guess that would prove my point to myself if I lived in a vacuum. It is all just words anyway. I think people putting value on social media interactions is illogical … but it is two way street.

Autistic people can be illogical or "irrational," too, simply because, like NTs, they are human. However, I'd like to believe that a much higher PERCENTAGE of irrational thinking occurs in NTs than in Autistics.

I know a man with a clinical ASD diagnosis who is very illogical in that he's gone wokers.

He gets offended if one's ideology doesn't match HIS overly woke agenda.

He got offended when I innocently commented, "Rory is a boy's name." My intent was to follow that up with saying that my grand-niece's name is Rory, and I was then going to tell the story of how I asked my nephew why he and his wife didn't use an alternate spelling to indicate it's a girl such as Rorie or Rorri. Very innocent expression of my special interest (name spellings).

But right after I said, "Rory is a boy's name," this man jumped in and angrily declared, "We do NOT talk about anything gender exclusive here!"

This was a social meeting for autistic adults, and he was the head organizer with the ability to delete me from the group! Nevertheless, I took my chance and fired back, "This isn't about gender! It's a fact. Just like Joseph is a boy's name. William is a boy's name." I said a few more things.

Later in an email he told me he almost removed me as an assistant organizer (and he eventually did anyways!).

When I said, "Rory is a boy's name," I meant that the vast majority of people with this name are male. This is fact, not opinion.

What I think the man thought I meant was that I didn't approve of Rory as a girl's name (which is not true at all). Thus, he lacked logic and reacted emotionally.

However, he was also offended when I said "Joseph is a boy's name." Again, this is fact. Find one single WOMAN named Joseph.

Now, if I had said, "Jordan is a boy's name," this would not be factual, because it seems that it's split 50/50 among males and females. Same with "Taylor."

He totally missed my point. I'll bet he'd get offended if he overhead a woman telling a friend, "I'm pregnant; it's a girl; I want to give her a traditionally feminine name like Rose, but my husband wants to give her a masculine name like Hunter."

Autistics can be very set in their way of thinking, and hence, not be open-minded to hearing differing views. There was another autistic man who literally asked me for advice about his living situation (he was 28 and still living with his parents). I gave him the solicited advice. He got mad and accused me of wanting to antagonize him. I pointed out, "You ASKED for my advice and I GAVE it, and now you're accusing me of antagonizing you!" This didn't sink in and he continued his accusation.

It boils down to being HUMAN. Though we are the smartest animal on earth, we are also the most illogical and dumbest. We're smarter than rats and butterflies, but I can't think of a single stupid, illogical thing that rats and butterflies do.