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NeantHumain
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12 Aug 2007, 7:28 pm

When Hans Asperger originally wrote about children with Asperger's syndrome, he referred to their disorder as autistic psychopathy instead of Asperger's syndrome. Do you think Asperger's likening of us to psychopaths was accurate or useful?

Can people with Asperger's syndrome also be psychopathic?



TheMachine1
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12 Aug 2007, 7:36 pm

The word must have not had the same level of negative connotation
in 1943. I thought I read he emphases alot of the positive of aspergers to keep nazi eugenic murders from rounding up aspies in WWII. So by that logic the name had to be fairly mild for the day.



Sylvius
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12 Aug 2007, 7:41 pm

Let's be honest. We're Aspies - connotation doesn't matter to us.

The similarities are that both Aspies and psychopaths fail to be responsive to the feelings of others. Psychopaths because they don't care how others feel and Aspies because we can't tell how others feel. But since Hans Asperger was working with children, and he was investigating a previously undescribed condition, he likened the two because they were superficially similar.

Before I ever heard about high-functioning autism, I wondered if I was a psychopath because I honestly didn't care how people felt, but I didn't care because I didn't know, and that's the relevant difference.



Doc_Daneeka
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12 Aug 2007, 8:23 pm

Sylvius wrote:
Before I ever heard about high-functioning autism, I wondered if I was a psychopath because I honestly didn't care how people felt, but I didn't care because I didn't know, and that's the relevant difference.


Indeed. The only thing I could find that fit the way my mind worked was 'psychopath'. Yet it bothered me as a potential diagnosis, because I did not have any pattern of antisocial behaviour (ie, criminality, manipulation, intimidation, etc). I feel so stupid for having dismissed autism out of hand due to my having no resemblance to autists as they appear on TV and in the movies. Sigh.



2ukenkerl
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12 Aug 2007, 9:05 pm

Psychopathy means, literally, mental disease or, more appropriately, mental disorder. It really has nothing to do with being a psychopath. Being a doctor, I guess he almost HAD to refer to it as such.



Last edited by 2ukenkerl on 12 Aug 2007, 10:45 pm, edited 1 time in total.

richardbenson
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12 Aug 2007, 10:40 pm

i thought psychopathy ment "autistic like traits" :?


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anbuend
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12 Aug 2007, 10:52 pm

He didn't mean psychopathy as in "psychopath" or "sociopath". He meant psychopathy as in psychopathology, like "something wrong with the mind".


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2ukenkerl
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12 Aug 2007, 10:59 pm

richardbenson wrote:
i thought psychopathy ment "autistic like traits" :?


NOPE!

Psych=mental/mind/brain
path=sickness/disorder/disease

idio=unknown
logy=study

PSYCH-o-LOGY(Study of mind)
IDEO-PATH-ic(unknown disease)

The idea of psychopath is unfortunate since it LITERALLY means sickness of the mind, but has been overused, etc... and came to have another understanding. I guess it is like the word gay which REALLY means colorful or cheerful(A CHRISTMAS carol says "Our gay apparel"(Our colorful/cheerful clothing), and the flintstones(An old cartoon in the US) theme says "We'll have a gay old time"(We'll have a cheerful time)), but today has another meaning.



anbuend
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12 Aug 2007, 11:02 pm

A word 'really' means what it is used to mean at that time. It doesn't have to have only one meaning.


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2ukenkerl
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12 Aug 2007, 11:11 pm

anbuend wrote:
A word 'really' means what it is used to mean at that time. It doesn't have to have only one meaning.


Well, the more meanings it has, the more meaningless it becomes.



anbuend
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13 Aug 2007, 12:53 am

The word "set" must be really meaningless then.


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13 Aug 2007, 6:33 am

I do know autistics were for quite a while b4 WW2 euthinized, id assumed that those higher functioning would escape this fate (Eisnstine emmigrated to the US b4 WW2)

Imagine how different our world would have been had everybody in Europe that was seen as slightly different, no matter at what function level was euthinized! Its a crazy thought, heh.


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2ukenkerl
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13 Aug 2007, 6:36 am

woodsman25 wrote:
I do know autistics were for quite a while b4 WW2 euthinized, id assumed that those higher functioning would escape this fate (Eisnstine emmigrated to the US b4 WW2)

Imagine how different our world would have been had everybody in Europe that was seen as slightly different, no matter at what function level was euthinized! Its a crazy thought, heh.


Einstein would have been killed only because he wouldn't remain quiet, and was Jewish.



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13 Aug 2007, 7:23 am

Yes, who also exibited many aspie traits supposedly. That was what I was getting at, actually when I posted that i had no thought that he was jewish, i knew he was but did not even consider it at that time, hehe.


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Sylvius
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13 Aug 2007, 12:47 pm

Doc_Daneeka wrote:
Sylvius wrote:
Before I ever heard about high-functioning autism, I wondered if I was a psychopath because I honestly didn't care how people felt, but I didn't care because I didn't know, and that's the relevant difference.


Indeed. The only thing I could find that fit the way my mind worked was 'psychopath'. Yet it bothered me as a potential diagnosis, because I did not have any pattern of antisocial behaviour (ie, criminality, manipulation, intimidation, etc). I feel so stupid for having dismissed autism out of hand due to my having no resemblance to autists as they appear on TV and in the movies. Sigh.

I had a bit of the manipulative angle, but only because I was learning that other people would happily draw inferences in the absence of complete information, so I'd tailor incomplete information to lead them to those baseless inferences.



NeantHumain
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13 Aug 2007, 7:56 pm

Let's look at it in a little more detail, shall we?

Psychopaths are said to have a characteristic glibness and superficial charm about them. Does the individual with Asperger's syndrome (AS) display such characteristics? Persons with AS and nonverbal learning disorders tend to have a higher verbal IQ than performance IQ on the WISC and WAIS, which can manifest as verbosity, and this can superficially resemble the psychopath's ease of conversation, which results from a lack of self-consciousness. However, the psychopath's verbalizations are typically lacking in substance; their speech tends to be folksy, meandering, and full of idiomatic expressions and logical fallacies. In contrast, the aspie's use of language is exacting, even pedantic; it tends to come across as an academic treatise or technical manual instead of everyday conversation. Now, are aspies charming? I might like to think so, but it is more likely an acquired taste. Perhaps our most endearing quality is our relative naïveté and honesty.

Psychopaths are said to have shallow affect, or emotions. They are generally emotionally cold although they can make brief, often dramatic emotional displays—most often for conscious gain. On the other hand, persons with AS and high-functioning autism (HFA) frequently have flat affect, meaning nearly no display of emotion (not a smile, not a tear—blank). Other aspies have low emotional control and are easily excitable, prone to bouts of anxiety and depression, rage, and excitement. Insofar as they can both appear emotionally cold, psychopaths and aspies are similar.

Psychopaths are further said to be callous and lacking in empathy. Basically, they don't care about anyone but themselves and are unmoved by disaster and misfortune. They may make insensitive comments because of this lack of concern but at the same time can come across as cool under pressure (since they don't experience the pressure!). Many aspies, though, are quite concerned with world affairs, disability rights, and their own favored causes; many report being quite moved by disasters like Hurricane Katrina, the tsunami in Indonesia, civil war in Sudan, and so forth. For most aspies, then, the difficulty is in understanding what other people are tihnking and feeling and not an indifference to their concerns. Unfortunately, it is not unheard of, either, for aspies to develop a degree of callousness as a result of sheer psychological wear: the product of significant mistreatment and misunderstanding which leads to a turning toward the self and a more profound detachment from others.

Psychopaths are said to have a grandiose sense of self-worth and an extreme degree of egocentricity. Few aspies, in contrast, engage in boasting and careless disparagement of others. Many aspies actually apply ideals of equality strictly, treating supervisors, clerks, celebrities, teachers, classmates, and coworkers the same. Aspies tend to respect knowledge, merit and merit much more than social status, wealth, or title.More aspies. A higher proportion of aspies than NeuroTypicals (NTs) are clinically depressed, suffering low self-esteem. Those aspies who exhibit inflated self-esteem often do so as a transparent compensation for social rejection and an inner feeling of inadequacy. When aspies are stubborn, argumentative, and sure of their rightness, it results more from their pedantry and depth of knowledge than from a compulsion to put others down or exhibit superiority. It cannot be denied, though, that many if not most aspies are egocentric in that they understand their own needs well but have trouble understanding others and the consequent social obligations; this is more a developmental egocentricity than selfishness.

Psychopaths are said to have an extreme need for external stimulation and an inability to tolerate boredom or monotony. Aspies show a variety of hypersensitivities and hyposensitvities. I have met an aspie who claimed to be a bit of a daredevil and enjoyed jumping off her roof as a child; I have also heard of aspies who become quite nervous and unable to focus because of the chatter in a typical classroom. Most aspies are quite able to focus on dry, esoteric material if it is in their area of interest; many also have a preference for the familiar, but I cannot say this covers all aspies.

Most psychopaths are pathological liars who take special delight in conning and manipulating others for personal gain or for the simple thrill of it. It is often reported that aspies, especially as children, have difficulty lying and are obvious when they do tell a lie. This and their difficulty reading people makes more complicated manipulations next to impossible for an aspie to pull off—if they were interested in such a thing to begin with.

Psychopaths are generally impulsive, including emotionally. Many aspies have executive function deficits which lead them to be impulsive and have emotional dysregulation as well; however, an aspie's impulsivity rarely leads to the commission of crimes in the way a psychopath's does.

Psychopaths are often highly sexually promiscuous. Many aspies report trouble even finding a date.

Psychopaths tend to have severe conduct problems going back to early childhood, including theft, truancy, lying, and assault, Few aspies do.

Aspies tend to have all-consuming interests (obsessions) whereas few psychopaths have persistent interests beyond taking advantage of others.

Aspies tend to have severe social deficits (lack of or peculiar eye contact, rigid body language, monotone voice, trouble making friends), but psychopaths typically have little trouble making friends (or at least superficial acquaintances whom they then exploit or use for entertainment). Psychopaths' social deficits are almost always a direct consequence of having hurt others, acting recklessly, or having a criminal record.