Page 1 of 4 [ 50 posts ]  Go to page 1, 2, 3, 4  Next


Should Neurotypicals participate in general discussion relating to what life is like for Autistics?
Yes 33%  33%  [ 22 ]
Yes 33%  33%  [ 22 ]
No 17%  17%  [ 11 ]
No 17%  17%  [ 11 ]
Total votes : 66

TyroneShoelaces
Snowy Owl
Snowy Owl

User avatar

Joined: 18 Jun 2004
Gender: Male
Posts: 150

06 Jul 2004, 6:30 pm

Hi There :D

How's it all going? I have a query; Might it be possible to have a forum catering for Neurotypical individuals associated with www.wrongplanet.net

I have no problem in NTs using the site, although I am sometimes confused when they do not identify themselves as such. I believe it was intended for the individual with AS or HFA - not those who know (or are related to) him or her. Having Neurotypicals participate in general conversation, pertaining directly to life as an Autistic person seems strange and irrelevant. There are countless sites dedicated to the purpose of allowing NTs to "moan" about our shortfalls.

I see it this way! A neurotypical joining this site is like me joining a site intended specifically for people from Hawaii. Weird and perhaps even insulting - I know nothing about being Hawaiian, just as an NT knows nothing about being Autistic. It totally defeats the purpose of creating the site in the first place.

Although the perspective of NT might be of value to us with Autism, might a separate forum be established for them to voice their opinion?

Thankyou for your consideration

Kind Regards


Greg



magic
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 1 Jul 2004
Gender: Male
Posts: 1,144
Location: US; male, 34

06 Jul 2004, 7:27 pm

TyroneShoelaces wrote:
A neurotypical joining this site is like me joining a site intended specifically for people from Hawaii. Weird and perhaps even insulting - I know nothing about being Hawaiian, just as an NT knows nothing about being Autistic. It totally defeats the purpose of creating the site in the first place.

What about a person who was convinced whole his life that he lived in Norway, but suddenly realized that palm trees and volcanoes, that he saw everyday through his window, are not really common in Norway. After searching a lot, he discovered that the world he experienced was more similar to that of Hawaii, and joined discussions on the Hawaiian site to figure out if maybe he had it all wrong. But he was very confused and thought that calling himself Hawaiian would not be appropriate at that point, as after all it could very well turn out that he actually lived on Java, or someplace else with palms and volcanoes. He just wanted to describe what he saw through his window and ask Hawaiian people if they saw the same.

Should I be allowed to participate in this site, even though I still want to call myself "neurotypical", until I know more? This is a genuine question with no hidden agenda. I will withdraw from this site if AS-diagnosed users tell me to do so. I admit that I still feel a stranger here - this whole Asperger idea is very new for me and difficult to believe.



Torley_Wong
Bawdy Tufted Titmouse

User avatar

Joined: 20 Jun 2004
Gender: Male
Posts: 308

06 Jul 2004, 7:35 pm

This is a loaded one :) because first you have to ask several questions, all of which are obvious (one of them is: "Which neurotypicals are we talking about here?" as it's a generalization). Now, I myself am uncomfortable with the NT term. It's easy to draw up sides and believe we are masters of the human brain when in fact we know a minimal amount! What exactly constitutes "neurotypicality" in the cases of those who come here and are seeking answers but are *unsure* about themselves? What about the trolls and tricksters (I was going to say "pranksters" but the former seemed so much more alliterative) who identify themselves as whatever they wish no matter what they really are? It's happened before, and it will happen again, inevitably.

While I understand your intentions and where you're coming from -- which is cool that you care enough to ask something like this -- logically, I'd have to wonder what the long-term ramifications of this would turn us Aspies into in the long run. Your analogy I'm unsure of because as we know, if someone wanted to experience Hawaii, there is such thing as a plane ticket, while there is no bona fide "Aspie simulator". And then there are degrees of experience, just like there is an "Autistic Spectrum" with many shades and colors, and each unique individual manifests the condition differently. So where do we draw the line? At someone who identifies himself/herself to be a "MID-Functioning Autistic"? Screen vigorously with a battery of Aspie exams? Demand everyone upload a scanned diagnosis certificate? This stirs the proverbial coffee on the pot, not to mention conversations that by their very nature call for multiple viewpoints. What's going to happen then? Links like foxholes digging out from within the "Aspies only" forum into the "NTs allowed" one? Wouldn't that be really awkward?

Ultimately, I believe as long as the conversation is kept safe, civil, and comfortable, it's all right. I may not know a lot about Hawaii, but I sure do wanna learn :D



Torley_Wong
Bawdy Tufted Titmouse

User avatar

Joined: 20 Jun 2004
Gender: Male
Posts: 308

06 Jul 2004, 7:41 pm

magic wrote:
Should I be allowed to participate in this site, even though I still want to call myself "neurotypical", until I know more? This is a genuine question with no hidden agenda. I will withdraw from this site if AS-diagnosed users tell me to do so. I admit that I still feel a stranger here - this whole Asperger idea is very new for me and difficult to believe.


Cute analogy, magic... yeah... as they said on the ol' X-Files, "The truth is out there". I for one welcome you in your quest for self-discovery. You have every right to be a skeptic -- test something until it falls apart, is what I say, and in my experience, the evidence has held up resoundingly well! :D



alex
Developer
Developer

User avatar

Joined: 13 Jun 2004
Age: 33
Gender: Male
Posts: 10,113
Location: Beverly Hills, CA

06 Jul 2004, 7:55 pm

The policy of of WrongPlanet.net is to allow NTs and Aspies to communicate without fearing that they do not belong (even though we do center the community around Aspies). Parents, spouses, and even those who are just interested, are to be permitted to post in any forum without being told that they don't have a right to be here based on the fact that they are NT.


_________________
Follow me on Twitter: http://twitter.com/alexplank

Personal FB: http://fb.me/alexplank1


TyroneShoelaces
Snowy Owl
Snowy Owl

User avatar

Joined: 18 Jun 2004
Gender: Male
Posts: 150

06 Jul 2004, 8:33 pm

Ehem :lol:

I am not saying at all that those who are not Autistic should not feel welcome in an arena, such as this site; in this you have misread me profoundly. What I am saying is that there is nowhere for people diagnosed with an autistic spectrum disorder or believe strongly that they are autistic to speak of their experiences, without being "intruded upon" by people who aren't. There are countless sites for people to learn about Autism - in that sense how is wrongplanet original? Likewise, there sites for people to talk about their friends and family who may or may not be Autistic.

I have no issue with parents, etc posting on behalf of [or with] their children - indeed this is certainly healthy. The term Neurotypical has different definitions, depending on which angle you approach it from. From an Autistic perspective, it means someone without Autism. Retrospectively, the Hawaii analogy was a poor one - you can visit and leave Hawaii. In the same breath, you don't wake up one morning to discover you're Autistic. Whether you are aware of the terminology or not, I would say that most [if not all] individuals with AS knew they were different since first memory.


E.g. - "I think my husband has A.S. - I've researched extensively on the internet, but he is in denial". - Tell me truthfully, How does that make you feel??? :x :x :x
In that vein - I will now go and visit a site dedicated to people with Downs Syndrome, as I think I may have contracted a 24 hour case of it!


GIVE ME A BREAK



Torley_Wong
Bawdy Tufted Titmouse

User avatar

Joined: 20 Jun 2004
Gender: Male
Posts: 308

06 Jul 2004, 8:36 pm

Sorry, I am not sure what you meant by the "Down's Syndrome" comment?



TyroneShoelaces
Snowy Owl
Snowy Owl

User avatar

Joined: 18 Jun 2004
Gender: Male
Posts: 150

06 Jul 2004, 8:39 pm

Someone suddenly deciding they have Downs syndrome, is as ludicrous as some who self-diagnose, themselves, relatives, friends, etc. from the internet! If they don't want a diagnosis - that's their decision. Like Downs Syndrome, AS isn't a transient illness - it is who you are!! !



Torley_Wong
Bawdy Tufted Titmouse

User avatar

Joined: 20 Jun 2004
Gender: Male
Posts: 308

06 Jul 2004, 8:43 pm

Oh hey it makes sense now. Thanks for clarifying, yeah, I have a really good friend who has Down's Syndrome who is such a nice, good-spirited and doggedly direct guy (we're always wondering why so many people have to be untrue to themselves in this world, why all the b.s.?) and I agree with you SOLIDLY there :D.



TyroneShoelaces
Snowy Owl
Snowy Owl

User avatar

Joined: 18 Jun 2004
Gender: Male
Posts: 150

06 Jul 2004, 9:01 pm

Definitely - on the other hand though, people are not a diagnosis. For example, people with Down's Syndrome are very individualistic! I have met 2 children who have Down's Syndrome [intellectual disability] and are also autistic [neurodevelopmental disorder]. I support four individuals with Down's Syndrome as part of my role in special education - they are all very different and interesting children in their own right [some have a greater degree of intellectual impairment than others].

A label is not something to be taken lightly - and it offends me to see one that I possess bandied around like some terminal affliction. Who cares if your husband is in "denial" - the mere fact that he has succeeded in life to this point largely unsupported is something to be applauded, not lamented.
Is it any wonder that so many of us have issues with self-esteem?



Last edited by TyroneShoelaces on 06 Jul 2004, 9:09 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Torley_Wong
Bawdy Tufted Titmouse

User avatar

Joined: 20 Jun 2004
Gender: Male
Posts: 308

06 Jul 2004, 9:05 pm

Labels are a "necessary evil". I use them for accessibility and convenience, but in the context of being a starting point. Yet another contradiction I've come to embrace -- Asperger's is who I am in some ways, yet it does not limit me in others.

We live in such a fast-moving world, where it's easier to have specific terms that expand out to elaborate definitions instead of repeating the whole spiel each time. Hence, on a micro-level, the need for acronyms like LOL. I don't always chalk it up to laziness though... but I could stand to see more positive Aspie stereotypes. It's not easy breaking the ice with: "Well, you know that dude Rainman..."

I'm convinced right now that "Asperger's Syndrome" is a placeholder term that will give way to what I hope will be a more effective way of describing the neurodiverse spectrum in the future.



TyroneShoelaces
Snowy Owl
Snowy Owl

User avatar

Joined: 18 Jun 2004
Gender: Male
Posts: 150

06 Jul 2004, 9:31 pm

Hi Again

Wasn't the Rainman an autistic savant? :wink: :wink:

But you're right - there are few positive role models as far as the AS community is concerned. I suppose there are people like Bill Gates, but I do not know whether he has ever "come out of the closet" as it were! And the fact that many "real" computer people seem to dislike him - I've never quite fathomed that! Windows XP is "pretty" and I don't know how I would survive without Microsoft Word!

I will reiterate my original point - no offence intended, so keep your socks on! There are many sites with clinical information, relating to the diagnostic criteria for AS - it is unwise to self-diagnose through reading the experiences of those who may or may not have it! Don't ever use one site in seeking information, i.e. there are multiple diagnositic criteria used to identify AS - the DSM4 is not as frequently used as Gillberg's Description. The DSM4 is the only tool mentioned in the information on this site - this supports misinformation.

Some think that a possible diagnosis of AS will save the ship. It appears as though many confuse AS with inappropriate behaviour and use the terms interchangeably. Consider the fact that your husband might just be a grumpy old bugger, as well :lol: If he does not worry about the fact that he could possibly have an ASD, why should you? In such instances , a diagnosis gets you nowhere.

I'll sign off here before I digress further :lol:

Thanks again



Nuttdan
Forum Moderator
Forum Moderator

User avatar

Joined: 13 Jun 2004
Age: 31
Gender: Male
Posts: 323
Location: White River Junction, VT

06 Jul 2004, 11:13 pm

Well, let's clear up a few things. This may be a little redundant, but I figure I should clear 'em up anyway:

Our website does not shut out NT's. We even have that as an option for diagnosis on there. Anyone is allowed and encouraged to use the site. However, the centerpiece of this site is asperger's syndrome. That's kind of the main point for creating this site.

Now, there is some originality to our site, I believe. The sites out there that we looked at were essentially either a resource or a community, never both, and that's something that is different about this site. Also, other community sites we visited were either elitist, underpopulated, or more centered around being a community for parents and educators.

We don't mean to sling mud at other sites. That's not the goal here. The goal here is to offer a continually maintained and updated alternative website and to contribute to the lives of aspies and the level of tolerance and understanding that society has.

Our site has started off small, but it's really taking off. With nearly 200 members and nearly 1000 posts, all in the few weeks it's been online. Two local newspapers have written articles about it, and our press release has been picked up by several websites. Several aspie websites have added links or are in the process of adding links (including Tony Attwood's site in the latter group).

We hope to be able to provide a great community that deals with Asperger's, but my argument I guess is that it really doesn't make any sense to have an NT forum. NT is an extremely broad classification of people without really much that we can address uniquely on this website.

There are plenty of websites out there for general purpose chatting. And there are plenty of online communities for specific purposes and topics. Ours, we've decided is centered around asperger's and autism. That's what our site is.

And Torely, you make an interesting point. I had a debate with an NT friend of mine about the label of "asperger's syndrome", which sort of pissed me off, but others might agree with his points. I'll probably post it later.



magic
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 1 Jul 2004
Gender: Male
Posts: 1,144
Location: US; male, 34

07 Jul 2004, 12:25 pm

Just a little personal explanation (somewhat off-topic):

Torley_Wong and others, thanks for your encouraging comments. They are very important for me. I was afraid that I would be told "Go away and don't return without your diagnosis!". I would like to assure everyone that I have not lost all friends and started stimming overnight, but the discovery that my "internal enemy" might be autism was sudden and shocking, and yes, I have learned about it on the net. So there indeed was one day when I woke up as a neurotypical and went to bed as an aspie (having doubts, of course). I have spent six weeks researching everything I could about AS, and trying to diagnose or "undiagnose" myself, before I took courage of posting on this website. I actually wanted to wait until I get (or not) diagnosed, but this is not going to happen in the next couple of months, for various reasons. Seeing posts here that felt like stolen from my mind, I decided to take the risk, knowing that some people might find me a trespasser. I write this to let you know what kind of "neurotypicals" are here on wrongplanet.net (one example of them, anyway).

Alex and Dan, I would like to thank you for setting up this website. I hope that it will develop the way you intend, which I find an ideal goal. I also hope that my "trespassing" does not drag it into wrong direction.



alex
Developer
Developer

User avatar

Joined: 13 Jun 2004
Age: 33
Gender: Male
Posts: 10,113
Location: Beverly Hills, CA

07 Jul 2004, 2:21 pm

magic wrote:
Just a little personal explanation (somewhat off-topic):

Torley_Wong and others, thanks for your encouraging comments. They are very important for me. I was afraid that I would be told "Go away and don't return without your diagnosis!". I would like to assure everyone that I have not lost all friends and started stimming overnight, but the discovery that my "internal enemy" might be autism was sudden and shocking, and yes, I have learned about it on the net. So there indeed was one day when I woke up as a neurotypical and went to bed as an aspie (having doubts, of course). I have spent six weeks researching everything I could about AS, and trying to diagnose or "undiagnose" myself, before I took courage of posting on this website. I actually wanted to wait until I get (or not) diagnosed, but this is not going to happen in the next couple of months, for various reasons. Seeing posts here that felt like stolen from my mind, I decided to take the risk, knowing that some people might find me a trespasser. I write this to let you know what kind of "neurotypicals" are here on wrongplanet.net (one example of them, anyway).

Alex and Dan, I would like to thank you for setting up this website. I hope that it will develop the way you intend, which I find an ideal goal. I also hope that my "trespassing" does not drag it into wrong direction.


You are definitely not trespassing. You should feel welcome!


_________________
Follow me on Twitter: http://twitter.com/alexplank

Personal FB: http://fb.me/alexplank1