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ixochiyo_yohuallan
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22 Nov 2007, 6:23 am

The other day, I was helping a friend who is doing her MA in clinical psychology with an outline for a paper that compares the existential and analytical (Jungian) branches. While I was doing it, it occurred to me that some ideas of the neurodiversity movement are very similar to the key ideas in existential psychology.

Consider the following:

- There is no "normal". Everybody is different, and everybody without exception has issues of one sort or another.

- There is no such thing as mental illness (and, consequently, no such thing as sanity). There are only different ways of being, i.e., different ways in which people see the world and live their lives, and the different choices they make throughout the course of their lifetime which may make things more or less difficult for them.

- Therapy is about restoring a sense of authenticity and value to the client's life, and helping them become truly who they are. It is supposed to teach one to be honest with oneself, to realize and admit one's failures or shortcomings, to take advantage of one's positive traits and turn the negative ones into something useful, and to face emotional crises and suffering more boldly.

- It is useless and impossible to try to "normalize" the client (since there is no normal in the first place). However, the therapist can help them stop engaging in self-deception and learn to see themselves for who they are; they should also be made aware of the vast variety of choices they could make in the future, from which they are free to select any that will match their personality best. As a result, their life will become much more joyful and fulfilling.

- Each person is unique, and this uniqueness is to be cherished.

- Diagnosing is just another variety of "label-sticking", and should be avoided. It reduces a person to a single "broken" function or a set of such functions, and, as a result, disregards every person's innate uniqueness and the fact that their personality is a harmonious, indivisible whole. Also, any person is broader than any single definition, like one offered by a diagnosis.

- During therapy, the therapist and client should be on equal terms, and should strive for establishing an I-Thou relationship (that is, the therapist should respect and accept the client for who they are, and try and empathize with their experience, "walk in their shoes" as it were). It is unacceptable for the therapist to try and interpret the client's experience from her or hwe own standpoint, to make judgments, or, above all, to pressure or force the client into doing anything they do not want to do.

Etc.

This is a widely acclaimed and respected branch of psychology, and, while not everybody may agree with its ideas, nobody attacks its proponents for daring to suggest that people should be accepted for who they are. Nobody goes hysterical over the way it suggests that people should try to find their own path rather than try and be "normal". I have a hard time imagining a Kit Weintraub saying how afraid she is of it, since it might, Heaven forbid, teach her son that he is fine just the way he is.

Still, those who support the neurodiversity movement constantly get attacked and insulted for voicing the very same ideas. I wonder why.

(I'm not even speaking about the fact that these ideas have a universal ethical feel to them, and should have been self-evident by their very nature).

By the way, all this made me curious about what is meant by existential therapy of developmental disroders. I have a feeling that it might actually be a useful thing.



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22 Nov 2007, 7:38 am

Here is my take on it:

Existentialists (Kierkegaard, Sartre, etc.) focus on the individual's search for meaning. Most refer to an existential crisis (like angst or anxiety) which leads a person on a quest to discover or create meaning in their lives. Similarly, existential therapies (like gestalt therapy and logotherapy) attempt to help the patient or client find or construct meaning in their lives.

Although existentialism was one of the movements which influenced postmodernism (e.g. Jean-François Lyotard) and poststructuralism (e.g., Michel Foucault), I would not myself refer to existentialism as a postmodern philosophy.

The term neurodiversity was apparently coined by Judy Singer:

"The rise of Neurodiversity takes postmodern fragmentation one step further. Just as the postmodern era sees every once too solid belief melt into air, even our most taken-for granted assumptions: that we all more or less see, feel, touch, hear, smell, and sort information, in more or less the same way, (unless visibly disabled) are being dissolved."
http://www.neurodiversity.com.au/whypolitics.htm

There is, in the above quotation, no existential assumption regarding a search for meaning. Singer is simply observing what Lyotard called, "an incredulity toward metanarratives." In other words, rather than regarding only a limited neurological range as acceptable (these days often referred to as the "neurotypical"), Singer would like us to view all neurologies, including of those on the autism spectrum, as acceptable.

If there is a therapeutic modality close to the notion of neurodiversity, I would suggest it is narrative therapy (not the existential therapies). For instance:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Narrative_Therapy


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22 Nov 2007, 7:47 am

ixochiyo_yohuallan wrote:
- There is no "normal". Everybody is different, and everybody without exception has issues of one sort or another.


I've been telling people for years that if I'm going to pretend to be normal I may as well pretend to be a unicorn or a dragon for all the good it will do me.

Normal is a figment of the imagination.


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ixochiyo_yohuallan
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22 Nov 2007, 8:02 am

Frankly, I fail to see anything "postmodern" about the idea underlying neurodiversity. It is a HUMANE idea first and foremost, and that's about it.

There is nothing "postmodern" about cherishing and loving people for who they are. Jesus was saying that we should do the same two thousand years ago, and so have many wise people throughout history. So will any more or less kind person nowadays. It is an age-old and fairly obvious value.



Last edited by ixochiyo_yohuallan on 22 Nov 2007, 9:37 am, edited 2 times in total.

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22 Nov 2007, 9:20 am

ixochiyo_yohuallan wrote:
Frankly, I fail to see anything "postmodern" about the idea underlying neurodiversity. It is a HUMANE idea first and foremost, and that's about it.


People use the term neurodiversity differently. However, Judy Singer, who coined the term (not that it matters), said she was presenting a postmodern approach to neurological difference.

I am also utilizing a postmodern or poststructural perspective when I refer to neurelitism (as in my signature). However, I was a poststructuralist (Foucault, Derrida, etc.) long before I ever heard of Asperger's syndrome or was diagnosed with it.


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22 Nov 2007, 11:53 am

ixochiyo_yohuallan wrote:

Consider the following:

- There is no "normal". Everybody is different, and everybody without exception has issues of one sort or another.

- There is no such thing as mental illness (and, consequently, no such thing as sanity). There are only different ways of being, i.e., different ways in which people see the world and live their lives, and the different choices they make throughout the course of their lifetime which may make things more or less difficult for them.

- Therapy is about restoring a sense of authenticity and value to the client's life, and helping them become truly who they are. It is supposed to teach one to be honest with oneself, to realize and admit one's failures or shortcomings, to take advantage of one's positive traits and turn the negative ones into something useful, and to face emotional crises and suffering more boldly.

- It is useless and impossible to try to "normalize" the client (since there is no normal in the first place). However, the therapist can help them stop engaging in self-deception and learn to see themselves for who they are; they should also be made aware of the vast variety of choices they could make in the future, from which they are free to select any that will match their personality best. As a result, their life will become much more joyful and fulfilling.

- Each person is unique, and this uniqueness is to be cherished.

- Diagnosing is just another variety of "label-sticking", and should be avoided. It reduces a person to a single "broken" function or a set of such functions, and, as a result, disregards every person's innate uniqueness and the fact that their personality is a harmonious, indivisible whole. Also, any person is broader than any single definition, like one offered by a diagnosis.

- During therapy, the therapist and client should be on equal terms, and should strive for establishing an I-Thou relationship (that is, the therapist should respect and accept the client for who they are, and try and empathize with their experience, "walk in their shoes" as it were). It is unacceptable for the therapist to try and interpret the client's experience from her or hwe own standpoint, to make judgments, or, above all, to pressure or force the client into doing anything they do not want to do.

Etc.

This is a widely acclaimed and respected branch of psychology, and, while not everybody may agree with its ideas, nobody attacks its proponents for daring to suggest that people should be accepted for who they are. Nobody goes hysterical over the way it suggests that people should try to find their own path rather than try and be "normal". I have a hard time imagining a Kit Weintraub saying how afraid she is of it, since it might, Heaven forbid, teach her son that he is fine just the way he is.

Still, those who support the neurodiversity movement constantly get attacked and insulted for voicing the very same ideas. I wonder why.

(I'm not even speaking about the fact that these ideas have a universal ethical feel to them, and should have been self-evident by their very nature).

By the way, all this made me curious about what is meant by existential therapy of developmental disroders. I have a feeling that it might actually be a useful thing.


That's why I like analytical psychology so much. I think a lot of people have an incorrect idea about it being somehow 'cold/detached' but it isn't like that at all, for all the reasons you stated. I'm not very up to speed with current thinking in the field of psychology as it was years since I studied it, (and it was cognitive/developmental psychology I studied) All I can say is that analytical psychology is very helpful to so many people, and it works! So may the other approaches, but I can't speak for them as I'm not as familiar with them.

I think that the behavioural modification type of approach is used a lot more than the analytical, here in the UK anyway, probably beceause it gives results a lot quicker and so is cheaper for the NHS, but that is a 'correction of behaviour' approach which doesn't ask why the behaviour arose in the first place, and seeks to correct to 'the norm'.



Last edited by Starr on 22 Nov 2007, 12:13 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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22 Nov 2007, 12:11 pm

nominalist wrote:
ixochiyo_yohuallan wrote:
Frankly, I fail to see anything "postmodern" about the idea underlying neurodiversity. It is a HUMANE idea first and foremost, and that's about it.


People use the term neurodiversity differently. However, Judy Singer, who coined the term (not that it matters), said she was presenting a postmodern approach to neurological difference.

I am also utilizing a postmodern or poststructural perspective when I refer to neurelitism (as in my signature). However, I was a poststructuralist (Foucault, Derrida, etc.) long before I ever heard of Asperger's syndrome or was diagnosed with it.


That must have made it easier to take, if and when you found out you were on the Autism spectrum yourself but not having personally held prejudices or embarrassments about 'non-neurotypical or 'ret*d' or 'short bus' or 'not right' people. Then when you learned you would be lumped in with 'those people' you were not shaken to your own neuroelitism roots that you were one.

I had my own epiphany about how I truly felt about those people when discovering that I was one of them, too and always had been.

I meet neurelitism daily in my life, where eye meets eye and their eyes roll together as their reaction to one of my unguarded moments. I am categorized and rejected - just as I would if I were black at a KKK rally, just as I would if I were on a yacht with the 'beautiful people' in my sweatsuit with bed head and needing a shower.



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22 Nov 2007, 12:12 pm

Starr wrote:
That's why I like analytical psychology so much.


Do you mean Jungian therapy? Analytical psychology is the name usually given to his approach.


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22 Nov 2007, 12:14 pm

Yes, I do. I should probably have said that, Freudian psychology usually being referred to as psychoanalytical.



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22 Nov 2007, 12:20 pm

sinsboldly wrote:
That must have made it easier to take, if and when you found out you were on the Autism spectrum yourself but not having personally held prejudices or embarrassments about 'non-neurotypical or 'ret*d' or 'short bus' or 'not right' people. Then when you learned you would be lumped in with 'those people' you were not shaken to your own neuroelitism roots that you were one.


Hi, Merle,

Given my life history as a patient in the 1960s psychiatric establishment, when I was (by today's standards) mislabelled as a schizophrenia, it was an enormous relief, not only to finally have some answers, but to find other people with similar life experiences.

Quote:
I had my own epiphany about how I truly felt about those people when discovering that I was one of them, too and always had been.


The "being different" part was not important to me. Since becoming an adult, I have always loved being different (not so, when I was a kid).

Quote:
I meet neurelitism daily in my life, where eye meets eye and their eyes roll together as their reaction to one of my unguarded moments. I am categorized and rejected - just as I would if I were black at a KKK rally, just as I would if I were on a yacht with the 'beautiful people' in my sweatsuit with bed head and needing a shower.


Fortunately or not, I am pretty inconspicuous. I really don't act differently enough from most people I know to be noticable. I can play the game. However, I am different. This Thanksgiving, like almost every other one I have had since leaving my parents' home, I have spent alone.


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22 Nov 2007, 12:37 pm

nominalist wrote:
sinsboldly wrote:
That must have made it easier to take, if and when you found out you were on the Autism spectrum yourself but not having personally held prejudices or embarrassments about 'non-neurotypical or 'ret*d' or 'short bus' or 'not right' people. Then when you learned you would be lumped in with 'those people' you were not shaken to your own neuroelitism roots that you were one.


Hi, Merle,

Given my life history as a patient in the 1960s psychiatric establishment, when I was (by today's standards) mislabelled as a schizophrenia, it was an enormous relief, not only to finally have some answers, but to find other people with similar life experiences.

Quote:
I had my own epiphany about how I truly felt about those people when discovering that I was one of them, too and always had been.


The "being different" part was not important to me. Since becoming an adult, I have always loved being different (not so, when I was a kid).

Quote:
I meet neurelitism daily in my life, where eye meets eye and their eyes roll together as their reaction to one of my unguarded moments. I am categorized and rejected - just as I would if I were black at a KKK rally, just as I would if I were on a yacht with the 'beautiful people' in my sweatsuit with bed head and needing a shower.


Fortunately or not, I am pretty inconspicuous. I really don't act differently enough from most people I know to be noticable. I can play the game. However, I am different. This Thanksgiving, like almost every other one I have had since leaving my parents' home, I have spent alone.


Actually, Mark, you are spending it not alone, but with us! I am not alone with my brined turkey breast roasting in the oven, I am spending Thanksgiving here with you and Alei and ixochiyo_yohuallan and Starr . . .

Isn't WP wonderful? I can be alone but with all you folks too!

Merle



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22 Nov 2007, 12:39 pm

Starr wrote:
I think that the behavioural modification type of approach is used a lot more than the analytical, here in the UK anyway, probably beceause it gives results a lot quicker and so is cheaper for the NHS, but that is a 'correction of behaviour' approach which doesn't ask why the behaviour arose in the first place, and seeks to correct to 'the norm'.


Behavioral and cognitive behavioral modalities are becoming dominant in most parts of Europe and North America. This process can be seen in the gradual development of the DSM. The first three editions were very psychodynamic. However, the DSM-IV and IV-TR have moved pretty far away from it.


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22 Nov 2007, 12:41 pm

sinsboldly wrote:

Actually, Mark, you are spending it not alone, but with us! I am not alone with my brined turkey breast roasting in the oven, I am spending Thanksgiving here with you and Alei and ixochiyo_yohuallan and Starr . . .

Isn't WP wonderful? I can be alone but with all you folks too!

Merle


Yes, WP is a wonderful place! No-one's ever alone here. :) Happy thanksgiving everyone! (We don't celebrate it in the UK. Pity)



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22 Nov 2007, 12:42 pm

sinsboldly wrote:
Actually, Mark, you are spending it not alone, but with us! I am not alone with my brined turkey breast roasting in the oven, I am spending Thanksgiving here with you and Alei and ixochiyo_yohuallan and Starr . . .

Isn't WP wonderful? I can be alone but with all you folks too!


Merle,

Yes, thank you. That is a good way to look at it. ;-)


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22 Nov 2007, 1:45 pm

Starr wrote:
sinsboldly wrote:

Actually, Mark, you are spending it not alone, but with us! I am not alone with my brined turkey breast roasting in the oven, I am spending Thanksgiving here with you and Alei and ixochiyo_yohuallan and Starr . . .

Isn't WP wonderful? I can be alone but with all you folks too!

Merle


Yes, WP is a wonderful place! No-one's ever alone here. :) Happy thanksgiving everyone! (We don't celebrate it in the UK. Pity)


and I just had a turkey sandwich on 16 grain bread with mayonaise and a thin layer of cranberry sauce. It is such an unique American Holiday where we stuff ourselves and think about being thankful.
I am thankful for having our WP and all my friends that live in the computer!

Merle



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22 Nov 2007, 3:14 pm

nominalist wrote:
Behavioral and cognitive behavioral modalities are becoming dominant in most parts of Europe and North America. This process can be seen in the gradual development of the DSM. The first three editions were very psychodynamic. However, the DSM-IV and IV-TR have moved pretty far away from it.


Behaviorism isn't (yet) popular here, but existential and humanist approaches are, and this makes me grateful. This is, in a sense, an alarming trend. Behaviorism has little if anything to do with real psychology, in the strict sense of the word, and viewing some creature as a "black box" to be judged only by its external behavior strikes me as unethical even toward animals, not to mention human beings. The fact that behaviorism is increasingly favored over other approaches seems to indicate a worrying sort of moral laziness - it is simply the easiest way out, because it is a lot more convenient to modify or "correct" someone's outward behavior than to try and see the world through their eyes, just like it is ultimately easier to treat a person not like a person but like an object. It requires little to no emotional involvement, no potential damage done to one's own psyche, and certainly much less effort than any attempts to empathize and understand.

Starr wrote:
That's why I like analytical psychology so much. I think a lot of people have an incorrect idea about it being somehow 'cold/detached' but it isn't like that at all, for all the reasons you stated. I'm not very up to speed with current thinking in the field of psychology as it was years since I studied it, (and it was cognitive/developmental psychology I studied) All I can say is that analytical psychology is very helpful to so many people, and it works! So may the other approaches, but I can't speak for them as I'm not as familiar with them.


In that post I was talking about the existential approach (with most of what I'd mentioned applying to the humanist one as well) :) but I'm just as interested in the analytical one. Both seem to be equally useful, only in very different ways - the former encourages one to find one's path in life and to assume responsibility for it, and to learn to accept oneself on a more practical, day-to-day basis, while the latter helps one get to know the deeper layers of one's psyche. Both of these are necessary, I think.

I used to obsess over Jung some years ago, and he is still among my favorite reading (though I sometimes have difficulty finishing his books and have to come back to them after a break, because the feelings they bring out are almost too strong - this especially applies for 'Mysterium Coniunctionis", - and, of course, I read him as sporadically as I will read just about anything).

To anyone who lives in the USA: happy Thanksgiving!:) Before I signed in, I had remembered that it is Thanksgiving today, but then it totally evaporated from my head until I returned and saw you mention it in your posts. :oops: