Perceiving aural language as unconnected sounds.

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mmaestro
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26 Dec 2007, 6:31 pm

So I was chatting to my (NT) wife a couple of days ago, and mentioned that while if I'm concentrating on someone or expecting them to speak, I have no difficulty making out their words and understanding, however if someone says something at an unexpected time, there's a lot of background noise, or I'm paying attention to something else, I may hear noise, but I don't hear words. Rather, I hear disconnected sounds, running into each other. If I concentrate quickly, I can replay them in my head, connect them up, and figure out what the words that were used were. But really, unless I'm concentrating on what someone is saying, all I hear is noises. It's like the normal ability to just hear words has an extra layer of processing for me, or I perceive things too slowly to connect them up properly, and so have to then work out what the noises mean.

Is this an aspergian thing? When you hear someone speak, especially if you were not concentrating on them, what do you hear? Is it words, or is it noise that you then have to interpret and turn into words?

I found this very interesting, because a few weeks ago another site I read mentioned The Speed of Dark, by Elizabeth Moon. It's a near future sci-fi book, whose protagonist is autistic. Moon's son is also autistic, and on the book's website, she wrote an essay on what she believes autism is, at least in terms of our brains processing things. Her theory is that autistic brains process certain sensory information too slowly for it to be useful, and so many of the social cues we receive (which come thick and fast) are simply too quick for us to process (special interests and pattern recognition fills the void left by the fact we don't take this information in - nature abhors a vacuum, and so also our brains don't sit idle). Here's what she says about language:

Quote:
Imagine a computer keyboard. You press A and A appears on the screen; it has also reached the central processor, so that if A is a command (A for add, A for another, A for Aunt Alice's email address) the computer responds to that command. The speed of transmission of that electrical signal makes it possible to send commands, or type a message, as fast as you can type. Now imagine that the keyboard has a very slow connection. You type A, and nothing happens. The seconds tick by. Finally an A pops up on the screen. It would take a long time to compose a message to Aunt Alice--or to give a series of commands for an accounting program--if you had such a slow connection. Or suppose the keyboard would not transmit an A at all unless you pressed on the A key for five seconds. That would also slow down the transmission of information, even if the actual transmission time were the same.

The human nervous system can have similar glitches. Research has shown that some people have "slower" nerves than others--it takes longer for an electrical impulse to travel from the finger to the brain than it does for others. And it's also shown that some people need sensory impulses to last longer before they're captured (slow capture rate.) This can have serious consequences. For instance, in normal speech, the sounds of many consonants are very brief--on the order of 75 milliseconds. If an infant cannot capture such brief sounds--needs the sound to last, say, 200 or 300 milliseconds before it's "caught"--then the infant will not even "hear" the sounds of most consonants. If the infant doesn't hear them, then they don't become part of the library of speech sounds which the infant uses to build a model of speech, and understand which sounds are speech and which aren't. Some non-autistic children with severe language delay have exactly this problem. Some autistic adults who can now talk have described what speech sounded like to them when they were small--and they say it was like 'mooing' or 'groaning'--full of vowel sounds, not consonants.

I think my sensory experience fits with this rather well. It's not as extreme, but it feels like it's the same sort of symptoms, just not as bad. Like there's a disconnect in the processing time, everything comes in delayed. When I'm concentrating, I've learned my way around this - so well, in fact, that it doesn't even occur to me that I'm doing something complex, like riding a bicycle. But if I'm not concentrating, well then things come in slow, delayed, and don't make sense. I have to capture the sounds, process them separately, and turn them into something intelligible. Sometimes that works, sometimes it doesn't. And, to add insult to injury, I'll often get my rearrangements and stringing together wrong, trying to guess at what the person speaking to me was trying to say, fitting the sounds together, and coming out with something which has roughly the same structure of syllables but which actually has little to do with what they were really saying. Needless to say, this annoys the cr*p out of the person who was talking to me.

Thoughts?


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MysteryFan3
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26 Dec 2007, 6:55 pm

Look up CAPD - Centralized Auditory Processing Disorder. That same thing happens to me from time to time.


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duncansbass
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26 Dec 2007, 6:57 pm

I absolutely do this very same thing. I hear what I call sound blobs, or streams of aural perception that have nothing to do with me. People have long assumed I have a hearing problem, and I quite frankly do nothing to correct them.

I find it very interesting, your analogy of your own sensory experience--and, I think, my own--being in the same area as what is described in the essay, but not as bad. I also think to put it that we have the same malfunction, but on a higher-functioning level.

I have also said for years that I would write a comedy book that was nothing but anecdotes about things people have said vs. what I interpreted them as saying.
Great post!


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26 Dec 2007, 7:08 pm

A topic I need to hear about!

My computer and I have similar challenges. I also have some visual pattern delays, so that some higher abstractions are difficult for me unless I practice, in addition to motor "clumsiness". Visual patterns are fascinating, though.

I must work harder in a few areas in which there is disconnectedness.



missboots
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26 Dec 2007, 7:13 pm

Yeah, happens to me all the time. Oftentimes I'll just hear babbling...especially if I'm not watching the person's mouth.
Like the other day for instance, my boyfriend and I were shopping and he said something while still looking at me and I could understand him just fine, but he turned his head around mid-sentence and I completely could not understand him and I swear he was talking in a whisper. haha
So I asked him what and he did the same thing...so I asked him what he said again, and he did the same thing. So I just gave up and I still don't know what he said.
All the time this happens.



i_Am_andaJoy
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26 Dec 2007, 7:19 pm

mmaestro wrote:
if I'm concentrating on someone or expecting them to speak, I have no difficulty making out their words and understanding, however if someone says something at an unexpected time, there's a lot of background noise, or I'm paying attention to something else, I may hear noise, but I don't hear words. Rather, I hear disconnected sounds, running into each other. If I concentrate quickly, I can replay them in my head, connect them up, and figure out what the words that were used were. But really, unless I'm concentrating on what someone is saying, all I hear is noises.


yes. this is me.
but don't all people, who are not paying attention, just hear noise?

also, the letter A example you quoted... i can't look at the screen when i type, i look down at the keys until i am done, and then i go back and edit because the letters that show up on the screen are not where my brain is, and so it throws me off.


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poopylungstuffing
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26 Dec 2007, 8:16 pm

Yeah..I noticed a long time ago that I have an auditory processing disorder...it's irritating.



EvilKimEvil
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26 Dec 2007, 8:42 pm

Yes, it used to be called Central Auditory Processing Disorder, but now it is just Auditory Processing Disorder. I was diagnosed with it a few years ago.

It is exacerbated by background noise, other distractions, and stress, but it also comes and goes randomly. The most obvious sign is frequently having to ask people to repeat themselves despite having a normal score on a standard hearing test. By "frequently", I mean enough to provoke a reaction such as, "Have you thought about getting a hearing aid?"



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26 Dec 2007, 9:02 pm

If I'm not paying attention to someone, and they talk to me, I hear their voice, but like I would hear any voice with my head under the water. It's muffled and bassy, and it doesn't bring me "above the water" unless someone shouts my name or pokes me.


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autism_diva
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26 Dec 2007, 9:06 pm

http://autismdiva.blogspot.com/2005/08/ ... sting.html

In that paper I wrote that "little" research has been done in perception in autism. Well, that's probably not so much true as it is that almost no one pays attention to the work that has been done in perception in autism.

Anyway, it's a review paper of studies done on perception in autism I wrote about 3 years ago... I wrote it for a course in perception.

I have auditory figure-ground perception problems, that I think most ASD people have. It's also a problem the people with hearing aids suffer from. They have a hard time discerning one voice against a background of noise, especially against the background of other voices.

Figure-ground is a term that describes a thing that you are interested in (or would be interested in if you could see it), "the figure," against the background or, "ground." It's used to describe visual perception also, obviously....

Here's part of the paper

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Studies using autistic adults

Studies in the hearing of autistic preschool and school aged children are very helpful, but studies tracking the auditory perception of adults with autism are also important to show if and how auditory perception in the autistic population may change with development. Alcántara, Weisblantt, Moore and Bolton (2004), performed an experiment to discover the ability of adults with Asperger’s syndrome or autism to hear speech against a background of noise. Very little has been studied of perception in adults with autism. This population frequently describe problems with discriminating speech in a noisy environment. The purpose of this study was threefold, to verify the validity of the reports of this difficulty by autistic adults, to quantify the difficulties experience, and to propose possible mechanisms that render the discrimination of speech in noise more difficult for autistic adults.

Speech-in-noise perception was operationalized as speech reception thresholds (SRTs), which is speech-in-noise ration (SNR) at which approximately 50% of the speech is correctly identified. SRTs were measured for 11 individuals with high functioning autism or Asperger’s syndrome (HFA/AS) and 9 age/IQ matched normal hearing subjects as controls. The subjects sat in a sound proofed room and listened to recordings coming from one speaker placed in front of them. The stimulus was a recording of a man reading every English sentences against a background of one of several different recordings. These included ; (1) the voice of a female talker digitally altered to be similar to the speech shaped noises; (2) a steady speech-shaped noise; (3) a speech-shaped noise with spectral dips, (4) a speech shaped noise with temporal dips. The speech shaped noise with temporal dips would stand as a substitute for real world background noise of other people talking where there would be small silences in background conversations in a room of people talking.

The study reports that the “background sound” factor was statistically significant by the subject group. The SRTs were significantly worse for the female talker, the noise with temporal dips and the noise with spectral dips background noise conditions for the HFA/AS group. It appears that individuals with autism or Asperger’s syndrome are able to make use of temporal and spectral dips in background noise to piece together what is being missed, but they do not do it as well as control subjects. Anecdotal reports from the HFA/AS subjects indicated that while they did have trouble hearing what the male speaker said in the experiment, that in real life the difficulty with hearing speech in sound was even worse. They felt that the way sounds echo and the fact that the sounds don’t come from one direction in real life situations complicate their detection of speech even more so.

An experiment performed by Teder-Sälejärvi, Pierce, Courchesne, and Hillyard.(2005), investigated auditory spatial localization and attention deficits in autistic adults. In this experiment the subjects were expected to mentally localize the source of certain sounds amongst other sounds coming from an array of speakers arranged in a quarter circle around to the front and to one side of the subject. The subjects behaviorally indicated the source of the test sound and they were also monitored for their Electroencephalograph (EEG) responses in an effort to discover their ability to attend to the the sounds. Failure to localize sounds makes responding to them more difficult, obviously, and this would potentially have a deleterious effect on social interactions if there is more than one sound competing with the voice of a person trying to get another’s attention. Autistic children, especially, seem to have difficulty to orienting to their names, it is hypothesized that this may be a problem of orienting to sounds and a reason why they may not exhibit, “joint attention”.

Teder-Sälejärvi, et al, recorded event related brain potentials (ERPs) looking especially for the N1 component which indicate attention to particular auditory stimuli. The subjects were 7 male autistic adults (age 29-39) and 7 age and handedness matched normal males, all subjects had normal hearing and normal IQs. Eight speakers were spaced 6º apart creating a 90º arc, with the speakers placed directly in front of the subject being 1.20 m away from the subject. Each subject’s head position was monitored with an infrared light beam which was aimed at a small mirror attached vertically to the top of the subject’s head. The experiment was carried out in an acoustically and electronically shielded room.

The stimulus consisted of noise bursts presented in random order from all eight speakers. There were two experimental conditions, attend center and attend right, with ten runs of of 10[...] stimuli each presented in each condition. The subjects were told to either attend to the speaker direct in front of them or the one the right of them, the farthest speaker in the array from the one in the front. The subjects were asked to press a button to the infrequent higher pitched noise bursts (the targets) coming from the designated location and to ignore all other noise stimuli.

The study concluded that autistic adults have a significantly diminished though not absent ability to selectively attend to one sound source among many. They found that the autistic could could localized a sound as coming from one speaker or another only 6º away from it. In contrast they did not do as well as normal controls in a more challenging listening experiment that required the subject to selective tune in one speaker and tune out 7 others while listening for an infrequent higher pitched noise against other noise. The EEG results showed less accuracy in spatial localizing of a sound and more widely dispersed attention.

Teder-Sälejärvi, et al, report that abnormally reduced N1 responses such as those that this study used to indicate attention to a particular sound, reflect problems with the auditory association cortex.




Auditory spatial localization and attention deficits in autistic adults


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Last edited by autism_diva on 27 Dec 2007, 1:03 am, edited 1 time in total.

mmaestro
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26 Dec 2007, 11:52 pm

autism_diva, could you edit your comment so there isn't one enormous URL there? It's messing up the sizing of the page and making others' comments very hard to read, thanks.

Interesting. It's funny, because a couple of weeks ago, I don't think I'd even have realised I have a problem. And I still mostly don't - it's just in certain environments and situations. I guess it's another one of those things where, if you've always lived that way, you assume it's how everyone else has to do things, too. I only started thinking about it because I seemed to be getting things my wife had said wrong where there really ought not to have been any reason for me to remember them so badly. Guess I'll add that to my "collection" of disorders.

So I'm guessing this one is a pretty common comorbid amongst autists. I've certainly seen it mentioned before. Any ideas on whether it's near universal, or is it only a subsection of us who have to deal with this?

Edit Oh, this sounds so familiar. From Wikipedia:

Quote:
There are also many other hidden implications, which are not always apparent even to the person with the disability. For example, because people with APD are used to guessing to fill in the processing gaps, they may not even be aware that they have misunderstood something.
Well, I guess that explains a lot of misunderstandings, right there.


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autism_diva
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27 Dec 2007, 1:14 am

mmaestro wrote:
autism_diva, could you edit your comment so there isn't one enormous URL there? It's messing up the sizing of the page and making others' comments very hard to read, thanks.

Interesting. It's funny, because a couple of weeks ago, I don't think I'd even have realised I have a problem. And I still mostly don't - it's just in certain environments and situations. I guess it's another one of those things where, if you've always lived that way, you assume it's how everyone else has to do things, too. I only started thinking about it because I seemed to be getting things my wife had said wrong where there really ought not to have been any reason for me to remember them so badly. Guess I'll add that to my "collection" of disorders.

So I'm guessing this one is a pretty common comorbid amongst autists. I've certainly seen it mentioned before. Any ideas on whether it's near universal, or is it only a subsection of us who have to deal with this?

Edit Oh, this sounds so familiar. From Wikipedia:
Quote:
There are also many other hidden implications, which are not always apparent even to the person with the disability. For example, because people with APD are used to guessing to fill in the processing gaps, they may not even be aware that they have misunderstood something.
Well, I guess that explains a lot of misunderstandings, right there.


I don't know if there have been enough surveys among adults to see if we all have similar auditory processing things... I would think that if they tracked a child over time that his ability to deal with some kinds of sounds and hear some kinds of sounds would improve at least over a few years.

One thing though is that all people fill in bits that they don't really hear, we don't really "hear" things that are exactly there... just as we don't see things always that are really there... which is why optical illusions work.

The following is a quote from "New Scientist" that you can find on my blog...http://autismdiva.blogspot.com/2007/09/ ... sions.html

Quote:
A good demonstration of this effect was published last year by Makio Kashino of NTT Communication Science Laboratories in Atsugi, Japan. He recorded a voice saying "Do you understand what I'm trying to say?" then removed short chunks and replaced them with silence. This made the sentence virtually unintelligible. But when he filled the gaps with loud white noise, the sentence miraculously becomes understandable (Acoustic Science and Technology, vol 27, p 318).

"The sounds we hear are not copies of physical sounds," Kashino says. "The brain fills in the gaps, based on the information in the remaining speech signal." The effect is so powerful that you can even record a sentence, chop it into 50-millisecond slices, reverse every single slice and play it back - and it is perfectly intelligible. You can listen to Kashino's sound files at http://asj.gr.jp/2006/data/kashi/index.html.




I think that typical people just do it better than we do, with the exception possibly of people with hearing aids.


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EvilKimEvil
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27 Dec 2007, 1:25 am

mmaestro wrote:
Edit Oh, this sounds so familiar. From Wikipedia:
Quote:
There are also many other hidden implications, which are not always apparent even to the person with the disability. For example, because people with APD are used to guessing to fill in the processing gaps, they may not even be aware that they have misunderstood something.
Well, I guess that explains a lot of misunderstandings, right there.


That happens to me a lot too. Sometimes I do realize I misunderstood--a few minutes later. The conversation will have moved along and then I'll blurt out, "Oh, you meant _____ by ______!"



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27 Dec 2007, 1:52 am

I can get the rhythm of the speech, and usually most of the letters, vowels and consonants included equally. It's just those letters in-between . . .


Sa doowan go foth moo veto night?

vs.

So do you want to go to the movies tonight?

Oy. :roll: My mother, who at 58 got fitted for hearing aids, has started making "helpful" comments to me about, "maybe we should schedule an appointment with my audiologist." Yeah, right. That's why I can hear the brakes squeak on the car, even though neither you or the mechanic can. Like I said, oy.


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27 Dec 2007, 2:01 am

Voice IS noise isn't it? I wish people would stop making that ugly noise with their mouths.