Revison/rejection of "Anti-cure Cowardice"

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Sometimes, I'm convinced that AS is the cure for NT.

Logitech, let me put it like this. You wanted to know why people don't want to cure red hair, and I explained it. Not all metaphors or analogies can be completely direct; and by changing the hair's colour, you're "curing" it.

Like by changing the enzymes in the brain will change perceptions. I recently heard about something on another forum; German scientists have apparently discovered how to induce, and then reverse ASDs. So, if they can cure us, they can put us back the way we were. It's not like they're only focusing on a single, simple and brutal solution. This ought to satisfy those who love their ASDs, while still letting people get a cure if they want one.

gbollard, that's an inherent risk(though a highly unlikely one) anyone diagnosed with anything have, of being thought of as lesser, or being singled out. So far though, with people who're physically disabled, I don't really see much hatred, or discrimination. I can't help but feel that people are building soceity up to be something more negative than it is. Is it really so bad?

TLPG, you misunderstand the analogy. We're not the aliens. The Aliens are the Aliens. We're not aliens, but that's not relevant to the OP. If you re-read it, more closely, I'm sure you'll realize what was meant.

I hope you understand though, that our thoughts are alien to NTs, like their thoughts are alien to us.

Well, the symptoms of Red Hair are certainly treated. For all effects and purposes, the hair would now be whatever colour it was coloured, green even, if that was the choice. I myself would enjoy a nice dolcent blue.

TheFace, it is your body. But other people's bodies aren't yours. If I want a cure, I have the right to express that as much as you have the right to express you don't. If someone else wants a cure, they have the right to express that the same. Why can you not accept that someone else wants a cure? Do your standards apply to everyone but yourself?
To deny a cure to those who want one is of the same stock as forcing a cure on people who don't want one. Are you just the other side of a coin, or are you holding others to a standard you don't follow?

What gives you the right to nullify the preference of the lives of those who want a cure?

He can say it, when the emotion driving it appears to be fear. Fear is what gives you gut instincts. Fear is what drives knee-jerk reactions. If someone reacts strongly to something, on an emotional basis with no logical founding, and before they can explore all the possibilities, you end up with entire arguments inspired by fear-driven, presumptious assertions with no logical, physical, or historical evidence.

The origin of the argument that a cure would kill the autistic's personality, who they are, and replace them with an NT, was in 1993, by Jim Sinclair. Since then, it's been taken as fact, and is used as an end-all to discussions about cures. Usually it's used to accuse those for a cure of attempted murder, though in this case, it's be more like suicide. Point is, there's no real proof that it will destroy our personalities any more than going through a major change like, say, puberty. Did that kill us? Did that destroy our personalities? Nope.

As for the cure debate, it follows a specific pattern. I found this quotation quoted, so I quoted the original quotation. Ironically, it was from the Anti-cure site. Still, the meaning is clear to me about the things that have happened in most discussions about cures, from the insults to the dramatic opposition. I hope that it doesn't become a violent matter though.

"All truth passes through three stages. First, it is ridiculed. Second, it is violently opposed. Third, it is accepted as being self-evident." -- Arthur Schopenhauer (1788-1860), philosopher

The relevance comes from this; They don't see the benefits, but they're told the benefits, though they never experience it themselves. For the brave few who do try it, they can't be trusted to be unbiased, because now they are different too.

No, you can have pickles, but you can't state that your hamburger is better than the other varieties. I make mine on a barbecue, at home. Mm-mm! Yum! I kind of like the junky McDonalds stuff though, the fries are nice and salty, crisp, and the burgers taste like meat candy.

Proven false, proven false, and proven false.

But the general view shown has yet to be effectively disproven logically, has been attacked emotionally, and is being linked to other hypothesis which are proven false, simply to make it look bad. How about the hypothesis that the Earth revolves around the sun, that there is a force called gravity which influences motion, and that Hamburgers are delicious?

Deacon, I've seen no evidence to show that he's an idiot. He's eloquent, well-versed in social models, sees through attempts to derail discussions, and has so far shut you out to the point where you need to call him an idiot to make a point. I think that the evidence outweighs your theory by a wide margin.

Zwerf, 1) Do they retain this right when it infringes on the same rights for others? (I.E. those who do want a cure) If no cure is created because of the choices made by Anti-cure supporters, does this not then infringe on those who do want a cure, to be full out denied their right to make that choice?
2) It's more likely than you think. German Scientists have discovered a way to induce, and then at will, reverse ASDs in rats. Besides, the arguments are to not create a cure, in essence, stop the creation of a cure even before it begins. That was the theme of the discussion. I think you ought to have read closer.

Sure you could, and that's what happens, and this is why so many people are complicit in restricting people's rights based on cure stance. Those who want a cure are shunned, insulted, harassed, belittled, mocked, libelled, and sometimes even threatened. It's becoming an issue of politics, in something that is at worst a neurobiological disorder. I'd like to see how smug you'd be if you were on a recieving end of a bunch of people who want nothing more than your silence. People who are for cures aren't popular, I know. But does that make us fair game?

Fabshelly, there's nothing the matter with being normal. That's just plain rude, to imply that being NeuroTypical is something bad.

You can't cure something that's not a disease.

TheFace, no, they won't. Do you think people will stand for it, and do you think that once you're cured, you'd no longer be a voice crying out against it. Besides, the research that looks most promising for curing autism has been done by German Scientists, and what they've managed to do is induce, then reverse, the effects of autism in lab rats, or mice. Note the word induce, meaning that they can give it back. They're closer than you think, too.

Besides, the Media as they are, they catch the slightest whiff of people being forcibly cured, they'll be on it harder than a hammer on a nail. Besides, your example with John Nash hardly works. All they did was drug him out of his mind. That's not a cure, that's drugging.

So because you don't want a cure out of fear, no one can have one? Pretty selfish.

CockneyRebel, don't mistake Autism as being just like any other gene. Consider; Diabetes can be genetic. Does that mean it's not a disease?

More to my point, you don't want a cure. But others do. And they're getting closer to making a cure.

TheFace, that's pretty presumptious, and very insulting of NTs. There's no real excuse for that.

You really don't know NTs. I live with them, talk to them all the time, and more. They're not the monsters that they're made out to be. On WP, I've seen lots of jeers at NTs, lots of insults, and even a bit of what I think is called Aspie Supremacy. It's really not appropriate, or justifiable, and it really makes me mad to see people attacking those who's only crime is not having autism. It's no fault of theirs, but they get lumped in and stereotyped, prejudged, and get a guilty verdict for being normal. My apologies, oh different ones, that I don't think being normal is nearly as bad as it's being made out to be.

Why does everyone seem to hate NTs so much? Why?

http://io9.com/349956/one-pill-makes-yo ... s-you-back

Not too far from getting to humans though, especially with the results they've had.

You don't, but others do, and by saying that, you're supporting that, you're infringing on their right to be cured.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_genetic_disorders
So much for that statement.

Did you say Autism Speaks? No, you said NTs. Nowhere did I see someone from Autism Speaks on there. Besides, they're hardly specifically targeting you, and you alone. I do take issue to the way you set it up though. Not all NTs are members of Autism Speaks, not all NTs support Autism Speaks. If you meant Autism Speaks, say Autism Speaks. Not NTs in general. It is a sad thing to see such prejudice.

The way you talk about NTs, I'm amazed you think you really have any idea what you're talking about. You're scared of them, hate them, and insult them.

I seek out interaction, and I don't happen to have a conspiracy theory concocted about them. I like NTs, as opposed to believing they're out to get me. And I don't make it my business to blame them for everything that ails me. I earn respect, I don't demand it. I make my own way on my own merit, I don't use AS as an excuse or a crutch. I don't shove my AS in people's faces and demand that they accomodate me. I play by their rules, and I like it.

You're being an idiot, comparing Aspergers to Hamburgers. It's not even relevant to what I said.
Aspie Supremacy. You mock and taunt people you consdier lessers. You discriminate against NTs. You pick a fight with Autism Speaks, who isn't even talking about Aspies, but those with severe autism. Autism doesn't mean you, there are different contexts. And the context their speaking in isn't the autism you know and love, the Aspergers and high functioning autism.
It's not their fault that they're NT anymore than it would be their fault for a skin colour, or a religion.
Lots of NTs don't like onions on their Big Macs either.

They "seem to" not accept you. That seeming is just a seeming. You're reading material that's misinterpreted, like assuming that Autism Speaks means you when talking about the severe autism(the one you don't have), and you're assuming they mean you(an Aspie) when they say autistic or autism. Maybe you had a bad past with some NTs. Maybe you just have been pointed at a bunch of people and told that they think of you as a plague.

All I know is, it's counter-productive. You will never gain any respect from them like that. You will be considered as a plague and in need of a cure so long as you act the way you're acting. Think about it, you don't gain anything but a cheap outpouring of misguided anger the way you're acting. If you want change, you have to make the change. If you want respect, you earn it like anyone else. To show that you're able, and capable, you need to be mature.

Look at Sue Rubin. She was diagnosed with low functioning autism, and she had incredible obstacles to overcome. And look where she is now. A successful author, well-respected, an inspiration to people, and she got to where she was because of perseverance, hard work, dedication, the will to go the distance, and maturity. She didn't get to where she was by mocking NTs, by stating that she was superior, by demanding acceptance. She earned it.

If you want something, you have to make it happen yourself. You have to earn it. And you won't earn anythign but scorn and deaf ears by yelling at anyone who comes along with an opinion you don't like.

Pods will cure you, make eveyone the same, and everyone should want to be normal, for I say so, and put pods in your greenhouse. Dont go to sleep folks, that is when they come and make you just like them, endlessly happy perfectly adjusted to everybody, NT's.

First lies about autistics, now lies about NTs.

Insanity is saying the same thing over and over and thinking the outcome will be different. You might be insane if..

I have met NTs, lived with them, worked with them, watched them in groups, and I am not impressed with normal.

An IQ of 90 to 110, an overwhelming desire to hear themselves speak of nothing, is not anything I want. I can see that it is something they cannot overcome, so they do not like the conflict that there are other people who see differently.

German Scientists induced a state like autism? Did the rats build computers, or just act drugged?

Drugged can be reversed by the Cure, quit giving them drugs.

It is much more likely that a way can be found to induce autism, without the benefits, as a Bioweapon.

I call it The Tard Bomb! It brings a sudden end to sociaizing, left with only their own thoughts, they will cause havoc! They will endlessly repeat the same single issue out of any context.

They will see everyone else as deranged with a thousand mental illnesses, which they will now cure by endlessly repeating themselves.

Early tests show it works, now for wide spread application.

When everyone is suddenly blinded, those blind for life have the only skills that work.

The whole argument is, why does not everyone want to be just like me, for I am perfect.

You are a prime exaample of life?

If I thought I was becoming like you, I would seek a cure.

How the hell do you you diagnose a rat with autism?

In my original post here, I provided what I think is strong anti-cure position that anyone, if they wished, could state in response to pro-cure arguments. My position, obviously, isn't intended to be a position against the various competing concepts of normality, disorder, autism, neurotypalism, nor the question of whether someone with autism or Aspergers ought to receive treatment, etc. Rather, it is a position about, in my view, the psychological perspective that any person with autism could take. Namely, that it would be a blind gamble to accept any treatment or cure for autism. I explain why in my original post http://www.wrongplanet.net/postt54994.html

As I wrote in my other post http://www.wrongplanet.net/postp1175413.html#1175413 I think the current anti-cure arguments and anti-treatment arguments are poorly justified, and the response of most in society (the general public, doctors, scientists, politicians, families of autistic people, organizations, educators, etc) is to set aside the anti-cure arguments as being given from people who's perspective is irrelevant, similar to how most people with personality disorders vehemently argue against having any disorder, against any treatment, and so on. (This I believe is a major aspect of having a personality disorder...the person doesn't recognize it, doesn't seek treatment for it, and rejects it's diagnosis and treatment...most with personality disorders who seek medical attention do so for other reasons such as depression, anxiety, from the insistence of family, etc, and it is then that they are given the diagnosis, which they usually reject.

As for the non-autistic public who are anti-cure, this is interesting, as their perspective is different than those who are autistic. But you will find that their positions are essentially identical to those with autism, as if they have adopted some of the common anti-cure positions of many with autism. They taken on the role of advocate using the positions of people with autism.

Anyway, while I find my original post to be a possible anti-cure argument (which I revised later at this thread http://www.wrongplanet.net/postp1175413.html#1175413 based on some useful comments by many at this thread, and after further consideration), I do think, in retrospect, that it might be worth being willing to take the gamble regarding trying a major treatment or cure, especially since, during the treatment development there will be, IN FACT, children and adults who will have tested the treatment or cure and the effects will have been observed, and the testimonies of the family and the patients themselves about the results will be given.

Some other things:

It could be asked "HOW could anyone with autism or Aspergers even want a treatment" as their is no basis in their experience for them to have such a desire?" It is not as if they acquired Aspergers at age 15 and would like to be as they were pre-15yrs old. In regards to this, I'm very interested in the pro-cure pro-treatment opinions of those like me who have Aspergers or autism. What are you bases in experience for wanting a treatment or cure? Or, is your position one of curiosity, that is, being open to the possibilities of a major treatment or cure?

I've been surprised at the commonly head view of what a cure is by many with autism and Aspergers, namely that it WILL fundamentally alter every aspect of the make up of your self. I do not think those in medicine trying to develop a cure believe it will do this, nor is this their goal. As in schizophrenia, for example, the goal is to not alter the person to the extent that there is a different person, but rather, to retain the person (personality, identity, attributes, etc) and to restore their prior level of functioning. Of course with autism, the prior level of functioning was not experienced, though it did in fact happen prior to the onset of autism at 0-2 or 3 years old. The goal is to reach the nature of how things were then. I've been surprised at how many people with autism reject these obvious factual considerations. And those who look at what you're doing will reject your positions quickly and easily, and say your perspective is made within the throws of a disorder, like those with personality disorders, and they will reject your perspective, as they have done.

I find this website forum to be, in general, a possible great example of what is said when one is in the throws of a non-neurotypical condition that saturates most everything about the person. The vehement rejections, the denouncing of not only neurotypical medicine but of neurotypical personalities and life styles, and, the assertion of the supremacy of autistic and Aspergers people, the use of rare examples of autistics who are historical figures to define all autistic people.

Regarding Amanda Baggs, I did this post and am curious of any thoughts:
http://www.wrongplanet.net/postp1170170.html#1170170