Page 1 of 1 [ 16 posts ] 

Spiral153
Sea Gull
Sea Gull

User avatar

Joined: 25 Dec 2007
Age: 51
Gender: Male
Posts: 206

15 Mar 2008, 4:48 pm

I see this term mentioned a lot, especially when associated with Non-Verbal Learning Disability.
Could someone explain what it is?



LabPet
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 4 Jan 2007
Gender: Female
Posts: 4,389
Location: Canada

15 Mar 2008, 5:02 pm

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gestalt_effect

Sure - I chose to give the link above so I do not inundate. In sum, Gestalt is like puzzle pieces where each piece, alone, doesn't mean much and is rather arbitrary. But when these puzzle pieces are assimilated, a whole picture emerges! Sometimes when one 'steps back' you/we can 'see' the whole picture instead of an arbitrary piece. Like the expression, "Can't see the forest for the trees."

Sometimes this Gestalt effect (perception) have greater philosophical meaning, and in psychology too. I guess autistics can 'see' or focus intently on detail, but also see as if from an aerial view. That is, by definition, Auties/Aspies have no foreground or background - we get the whole picture! This can be sensory overhwelming (like seizure inducing for me) but this can be thought of a Gestalt effect. Have you looked at the pattern of tree bark and 'see' a picture emerge? Or see a pattern in a sequence? Also magicians use Gestalt (sleight of hand tricks) to divert your eyes from the trick. Often times I can 'see' the sleight of hand since I watch the whole picture (autistic trait) instead of looking at what I'm 'supposed' to look at! I bet you can too.

Hope that helps. I just Wikipedia...sometimes.


_________________
The ones who say “You can’t” and “You won’t” are probably the ones scared that you will. - Unknown


Spiral153
Sea Gull
Sea Gull

User avatar

Joined: 25 Dec 2007
Age: 51
Gender: Male
Posts: 206

15 Mar 2008, 5:20 pm

That was an interesting explanation. Thanks LabPet. :)



2ukenkerl
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 19 Jul 2007
Age: 65
Gender: Male
Posts: 6,277

15 Mar 2008, 7:01 pm

Lab pet IS right. Gestalt is a german word meaning shape or form. In Psychology, many explain it as the sum being more than it's parts. Lab pet basically presents that idea with a puzzle that looks like so much garbage(and may appear worthless) that, when assembled, may be a valuable piece of art.



gekitsu
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 4 Apr 2007
Age: 43
Gender: Male
Posts: 693
Location: bavaria/germany

15 Mar 2008, 7:21 pm

jup - its a very programmative concept for the mental science field around 1900+ - mainly psychology and philosophy.

with gestalt, you mean the most basic quality of the visual phenomenon - as opposed to the basic parts an analyzation would yield.
for example, when there is a flock of 5 birds flying in formation and you see them, the most basic parts would be "bird1, bird2, bird3 bird4, bird5", its gestalt, however, is "flock of birds", as you initially put them together as one, instead of going "ah, bird1, theres bird2, bird3 over there (...) and they all fly the same pattern, hence, its a flock of birds."

or the way you are likely see three points as the triangle they form (not always, but very often in cases when the triangle is a prominent shape, like isometric, symmetric, etcetera), not "only" the points.



Redrocket
Velociraptor
Velociraptor

User avatar

Joined: 19 May 2007
Age: 50
Gender: Male
Posts: 464
Location: New York City

15 Mar 2008, 7:23 pm

When I was in college I always learned it meant the "whole". This is what they taught in the Psychology courses that I took. A focus of the whole individual.



LabPet
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 4 Jan 2007
Gender: Female
Posts: 4,389
Location: Canada

15 Mar 2008, 8:53 pm

Related: I 'flash count,' which just means I know how many without counting; like taking a picture. When asked about how I do this, I cannot really answer in words. I just....do. I think, as I understand, this is related to the Gestalt Effect as a function of autism.


_________________
The ones who say “You can’t” and “You won’t” are probably the ones scared that you will. - Unknown


NeantHumain
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 24 Jun 2004
Age: 46
Gender: Male
Posts: 4,837
Location: St. Louis, Missouri

15 Mar 2008, 10:43 pm

LabPet wrote:
I guess autistics can 'see' or focus intently on detail, but also see as if from an aerial view. That is, by definition, Auties/Aspies have no foreground or background - we get the whole picture!

You've got it backwards. People with autism spectrum disorders are said to commonly be very detail oriented but unable to see the bigger picture. This does not always apply as it is a generality (which many aspies seem to despise and be unable to even understand).



LostInSpace
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 16 Apr 2007
Age: 41
Gender: Female
Posts: 2,617
Location: Dixie

15 Mar 2008, 10:50 pm

NeantHumain wrote:
LabPet wrote:
I guess autistics can 'see' or focus intently on detail, but also see as if from an aerial view. That is, by definition, Auties/Aspies have no foreground or background - we get the whole picture!

You've got it backwards. People with autism spectrum disorders are said to commonly be very detail oriented but unable to see the bigger picture. This does not always apply as it is a generality (which many aspies seem to despise and be unable to even understand).


True, autistics are generally considered to focus on the details and miss the big picture. There is even a whole theory devoted to it, which attempts to explain the underlying deficit of autism as a difficulty with integrating details into a gestalt. It's one of the alternative theories to Baron-Cohen's Theory of Mind hypothesis, although I can't remember the exact name right now.

Difficulty with perceiving the gestalt is a right-hemisphere deficit by the way, along with a lot of other deficits in autism.

Edit: I found the name of the theory: Weak Central Coherence: autistics "have problems with synthesis of large amounts of information" and are "biased towards detail oriented processing over processing of wholes"



LabPet
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 4 Jan 2007
Gender: Female
Posts: 4,389
Location: Canada

15 Mar 2008, 11:15 pm

NeantHumain - you're precisely right. I sort-of stated it backwards! I guess I meant that, for me, and other Auties/Aspies, I get an avalanche of data! This adds up to a 'whole' but in an integrated form, which doesn't always make sense. So, there is an integration difference. I think I see things in parts, then assimilate, instead of the 'normal' other way around. But I do not necessarily assign meaning to what I sense, nor do I seem to need to. I am analytically minded. LostInSpace stated this well too.


_________________
The ones who say “You can’t” and “You won’t” are probably the ones scared that you will. - Unknown


2ukenkerl
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 19 Jul 2007
Age: 65
Gender: Male
Posts: 6,277

16 Mar 2008, 7:56 am

Still, one stereotype(Not necessarily always true, but true enough) is that aspies can program computers. The average NT will look at a screen based word processor, and see it as like one process, and be lost as to how to start. A REAL programmer with NO libraries, etc... will be able to dial everything down to the most focused point. They will know they have to start with things like a routine to input characters in, what unix calls, an uncooked or raw fashion.

Heck, I once programmed a program one way because the stupid "manager" only gave me PART of the spec. I told him if he gave me the REST, I could have EASILY allowed for it and even done it in the same amount of time. That "manager" did the type of thing many do, and was a kind of male bimbo, so I think he HAD to be NT.



Sora
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 15 Sep 2006
Gender: Female
Posts: 4,906
Location: Europe

16 Mar 2008, 8:21 am

I noticed that people who see the big picture first do indeed get lost often! My mother is so ADD in that aspect, she can't figure out if it's simpelst programming, because she only sees everything at once, the big picture, but not the details and their meaning.

(Same stereotype revised as with autism: people with ADD see the big picture right away but can't see the details!)

I on the other hand need time to get away from the details and see the big picture, which I can do with time, but which I attribute wholly to my experience as this is a trained skill that I had to learn and work on throughout life. It is fascinating to see the reverse case so closely, that another person isn't able to shift to the details right away, but gets stuck on the big picture for a frustrating amount of time!



nominalist
Supporting Member
Supporting Member

User avatar

Joined: 28 Jun 2007
Gender: Male
Posts: 2,740
Location: Lower Rio Grande Valley of Texas (born in NYC)

16 Mar 2008, 5:55 pm

Gestalt is German for shape or configuration. If someone does not perceive the Gestalt of a situation, it is like saying that she or he does not grasp the whole picture and the interrelationships of the parts.


_________________
Mark A. Foster, Ph.D. (retired tenured sociology professor)
36 domains/24 books: http://www.markfoster.net
Emancipated Autism: http://www.neurelitism.com
Institute for Dialectical metaRealism: http://dmr.institute


LabPet
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 4 Jan 2007
Gender: Female
Posts: 4,389
Location: Canada

16 Mar 2008, 6:09 pm

nominalist wrote:
Gestalt is German for shape or configuration. If someone does not perceive the Gestalt of a situation, it is like saying that she or he does not grasp the whole picture and the interrelationships of the parts.


Succinct - which I like. Explanatory, in a certain respect, of my flash counting. For me flash counting is like unfolding a cut-out paper snowflake. I 'see' the picture in parts. Human memory works by what is known as 'chunking.' For instance, phone #'s are 7 digits, which is about the cognitive max. But of course humans can remember long and complex formulas by chunking together pieces; a cognitive function.

As nominalist stated well, Gestalt has a philosophical/socio component (his emphasis), but also mathematical, psychological, etc. Multi-faceted.


_________________
The ones who say “You can’t” and “You won’t” are probably the ones scared that you will. - Unknown


CockneyRebel
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 17 Jul 2004
Age: 51
Gender: Male
Posts: 121,245
Location: In my own little country

16 Mar 2008, 6:20 pm

I've read about Gestalt in a lot of old psychology text books.


_________________
The Family Schlager


nominalist
Supporting Member
Supporting Member

User avatar

Joined: 28 Jun 2007
Gender: Male
Posts: 2,740
Location: Lower Rio Grande Valley of Texas (born in NYC)

16 Mar 2008, 11:39 pm

LabPet wrote:
Succinct - which I like.


Thank you. ;-)


_________________
Mark A. Foster, Ph.D. (retired tenured sociology professor)
36 domains/24 books: http://www.markfoster.net
Emancipated Autism: http://www.neurelitism.com
Institute for Dialectical metaRealism: http://dmr.institute