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MikeH106
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13 Apr 2008, 6:57 pm

On p. 312 of The Unwritten Rules of Social Relationships, Temple Grandin comments,

"During the highly social years of middle and high school, dressing outside the norm will make you the subject of teasing and bullying, absolutely and always."

THIS NEEDS TO BE CHANGED. It's the Bully's Excuse.

I will never forget how rudely I was attacked by a boy named Fred who saw me wearing a suit to high school. We don't need books telling him it's okay.



sinsboldly
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13 Apr 2008, 7:06 pm

where does Temple Grandin say 'this is OK?'

Merle



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13 Apr 2008, 7:10 pm

It seems to me that she is simply explaining how things are, as an attempt to warn against behaviors that will elicit bullying. She's trying to help Aspies and Auties avoid bullying by explaining, in clear terms, what they are doing that draws negative attention to themselves. What's wrong with that?


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Fuzzy
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13 Apr 2008, 7:15 pm

Bullies don't read books for ideas on permissible bullying.

And Temple Grandin isn't writing the rules of society, shes just telling what they are.



alex
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13 Apr 2008, 7:18 pm

I disagree, at least with the definite way the rule is worded.

"cool kids" wear weird clothes all the time. It's called trend setting.

Bullies pick on the kids who are the easiest targets, period. They're not the fashion police.


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13 Apr 2008, 7:32 pm

Fuzzy wrote:
Bullies don't read books for ideas on permissible bullying.


I just had a rather amusing image in my head of a playground thug reading a large book called
"The Oxford Art of Bullying, for the nerd beating connoisseur - 2008 edition"

No but in all seriousness, I don't blame her for writing that. If i had a list of everything i should avoid doing so as not to atttract bullying during secondary school, I would've had a much happier childhood.



MikeH106
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13 Apr 2008, 7:40 pm

The logic behind the motive for changing it is that kids must bully nonconformers for the statement to be true. If nobody bullied them (and we're not supposed to) then it would be false!

I still agree that a warning that you might get bullied or that people have been bullied would be useful.



sinsboldly
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13 Apr 2008, 8:03 pm

alex wrote:
I disagree, at least with the definite way the rule is worded.

"cool kids" wear weird clothes all the time. It's called trend setting.

Bullies pick on the kids who are the easiest targets, period. They're not the fashion police.


ah, yes, to dress differently is a fashion statement, but one must be able to work it and pull it off! the 'cool' kids have peers that approve and adapt the fashion, thereby quickly diluting the 'difference' and supplying 'peer acceptance.' When one person does it, it attracts bullies, when a group does it, it is safety in numbers.

Merle



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13 Apr 2008, 8:11 pm

Look her up and call her. She's listed with the university. Don't email her though; I'm told she doesn't answer emails, but she will return phone calls.


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13 Apr 2008, 8:12 pm

Sophist wrote:
Look her up and call her. She's listed with the university. Don't email her though; I'm told she doesn't answer emails, but she will return phone calls.

That's odd. I return e-mail but am usually hesitant to talk on the phone.


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sinsboldly
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13 Apr 2008, 8:23 pm

Orwell wrote:
Sophist wrote:
Look her up and call her. She's listed with the university. Don't email her though; I'm told she doesn't answer emails, but she will return phone calls.

That's odd. I return e-mail but am usually hesitant to talk on the phone.


that is the first thing I thought of!!

Merle



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13 Apr 2008, 8:23 pm

MikeH106 wrote:
The logic behind the motive for changing it is that kids must bully nonconformers for the statement to be true.


But they DO. She's not saying it's right, she's saying it happens. And it DOES. In no way does the cause JUSTIFY the action, it's just the way things work. Your suggestion that she change the text because of this is comparable (though admittedly, not exactly) to saying that you can't teach kids about condoms because then they'll think it's okay to have sex.


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alex
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13 Apr 2008, 8:27 pm

sure, if you dress like a douche, you'll be a target for bullies.

but being a poser by dressing like everyone else is just lame.

There's a difference between not dressing like a douche and dressing like everyone else.


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13 Apr 2008, 8:28 pm

alex wrote:
sure, if you dress like a douche, you'll be a target for bullies.

but being a poser by dressing like everyone else is just lame.

There's a difference between not dressing like a douche and dressing like everyone else.

And many Aspies, myself included, lack the social acumen to reliably determine that distinction. That's why Grandin is offering this advice.


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13 Apr 2008, 8:35 pm

alex wrote:
There's a difference between not dressing like a douche and dressing like everyone else.


I borrowed stole one of my brother's "cool shirts" (Ocean Pacific I think) and got beat up-- because OP shirts were no longer cool and I was a stupid poser for trying to wear a shirt that had been cool a month ago. I remember it specifically because it's one of the few times I was ever really given an explanation for why it was being done to me.

Not dressing like a douche AND not dressing like everyone else will still get you beat up.

Alex-- I'm not really clear on whether you're agreeing with me, disagreeing with me, or saying something that has no relation to what I'm saying. Could you please clarify? (And thank you for creating a place where I can just say that, rather than wnder blindly.)


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13 Apr 2008, 8:37 pm

I've read a couple of books by Dr. Grandin, plus some of her other writings - I very much respect her! Perhaps you took what she wrote out of context. She's a HFA and does understand. I think she means that, in reality, neurotypicals (regardless of age), DO look at your outward appearance - clothes. And they WILL invariably judge you by this measure. Whether that's fair or not isn't the issue. I believe Temple is just stating what is real, not that this assessment by others is 'right.' She herself struggled and any autistic individual must do a bit of 'pretending' to fit into NT society. I do appreciate what OP wrote; and you shouldn't have to subvert your being to placate anyone. Temple is saying clothing, for example, does say a lot to others. I know there are bullies; so does Temple. Hence that's why she said this.

I have no idea how to write to her - follow other poster's tips, I guess.


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