At the risk of being offensive...

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20 Oct 2005, 12:44 pm

I don't know if anyone else here feels this way...

I was thinking about the post regarding Temple Grandin. She is probably the only celebrity or public figure alive that I'd be interested in meeting. My respect for her isn't because she's well known, or has written books, or because she's a figurehead for autistics accomplishing something with their lives. It has to do with her work, her perspective, and the fact that she's offered both the world and the autistic comunity something truly useful.

It irritates me though, when someone autistic (though the same principle could apply to other categories) writes a book or has an article written about them detailing their journey through life as an autie, etc, and then, boom! they're a celebrity! They put up websites about their books and public appearances, and how much they will charge for the honor of speaking to them, and what else they have to market and become, in effect, commercialized.

If they condescend to post on a forum, they either are attempting to generate more publicity or have something going of theirs that they want our cooperation in and we should all feel honored and jump on their bandwagon... :roll: There isn't any comfortable conversation or discussion of a topic without them coming off like some kind of an authority on autism that we should all be cowed by. And why? Haven't we all survived life as autistics in an NT world? What makes them better? The fact that they wrote a book and have been recognized by NT's whose opinion we could care less about in the first place? Wherefore the high and lofty attitude?

Or is it just me?

Prometheus
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20 Oct 2005, 12:53 pm

Quote:

It irritates me though, when someone autistic (though the same principle could apply to other categories) writes a book or has an article written about them detailing their journey through life as an autie, etc, and then, boom! they're a celebrity! They put up websites about their books and public appearances, and how much they will charge for the honor of speaking to them, and what else they have to market and become, in effect, commercialized.

Its a way of patronizing. They think it is specail and amazing that someone with such an disabling disablity can even do so mcuh.

I got newspaper articles because I had a 3.8 average and ran on the XX team while deaf. I liked it a lot at the time, but when I realized they did it not because I truly accomplished anything, but because I was deaf, it bothered me a lot.

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Yupa
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20 Oct 2005, 12:59 pm

chamoisee wrote:

If they condescend to post on a forum, they either are attempting to generate more publicity or have something going of theirs that they want our cooperation in and we should all feel honored and jump on their bandwagon... :roll:

There isn't any comfortable conversation or discussion of a topic without them coming off like some kind of an authority on autism that we should all be cowed by. And why? Haven't we all survived life as autistics in an NT world? What makes them better? The fact that they wrote a book and have been recognized by NT's whose opinion we could care less about in the first place? Wherefore the high and lofty attitude?

Or is it just me?

The problem I have with Temple Grandin is that people make generalizations about others based on her.
The same goes for any other Autistic or AS celebrity/public figure.

coyote
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20 Oct 2005, 1:02 pm

My guess is that they were pushed by NTs. You know how NTs are able to "construct" a star on command ? When they saw the commercial potential, they offer exclusivity contracts etc....

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20 Oct 2005, 1:03 pm

Prometheus wrote:

Its a way of patronizing. They think it is specail and amazing that someone with such an disabling disablity can even do so mcuh.

Not sure about other parts of the Autistic Spectrum, but AS isn't really all that disabling.
Now here's the way I see the concept of 'disability': If you can successfully walk, talk, move, hear, see, smell, taste, and think in ways that range from slightly below average to way above average, you are not disabled.

chamoisee
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20 Oct 2005, 1:36 pm

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My guess is that they were pushed by NTs. You know how NTs are able to "construct" a star on command ? When they saw the commercial potential, they offer exclusivity contracts etc....

Sure, I don't doubt that. But can't they be down to earth and real instead of constantly peddling themselves?

I have seen this in other places, too: the goat world (registered dairy goats), where some breeders, despite their huge success and winnings and acheivements, are still willing to talk to beginners and newcomers, and those who will hardly condescend to look at anyone who isn't as well known as they are. Or there's the homesteading circle, where Carla Emery, who wrote The Encyclopedia of Country Living with the help of many, many other people (who were not compensated in any way) enlisted a lot more help for her most recent edition of the book and then got on our case when we didn't do enough work for her (well, duh, people who are ekeing out a living off the land might be busy sometimes, Carla) even though we were helping her free of charge and had very little self interest in the project.

They tend to turn into snobs or users or people who can't have a decent conversation or make a post on a forum without mentioning their celebrity status. It's offensive, and I don't see hwo anyone's pushing them into acting that way.

I think, if I were well known, I would choose a handle that would conceal my identity and just not mention it....

Quote:

but AS isn't really all that disabling

In my case, I pretty much agree (but many people do not- we had a topic on AFF where soem objected to calling AS 'mild' autism). One of the people I'm thinking of actually recommended that aspies get handicapped tags for our cars. I would be really embarrassed to do that, especially if someone with a wheelchair had to park somewhere else due to my car takign up a handicapped place!!

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20 Oct 2005, 2:10 pm

Yupa wrote:

Hey, guess what? You've contradicted at what you have just said on your previous message. You've already categorised people diagnosed with AS based on your own personal life experience and expectations, which is a very foolish and patronising thing to do.

Just because someone is diagnosed with supposedly "mild" autism, doesn't necessarily make us smarter or better off than "low-functioning" autistics since we all share the same elements that make us autistic.

Learn more from other autistic's perspectives before you come to the immediate conclusion that those with AS are better off than the "dependant" ones.

EDIT: And for the record, I no longer believe in a autism spectrum.

EDIT 2: Editing this post again for the hell of it -- seven times!

Last edited by thepeaguy on 20 Oct 2005, 3:32 pm, edited 7 times in total.

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20 Oct 2005, 2:12 pm

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Last edited by Ante on 09 Nov 2005, 8:35 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Prometheus
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20 Oct 2005, 2:26 pm

I was being sarcasic. It is how the world at large sees AS, or anything on the "autstic spectrum".

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20 Oct 2005, 3:31 pm

chamoisee wrote:

I agree comepletely. I have to respect the person as well as the work, not just because they have a similarity with me.

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20 Oct 2005, 4:37 pm

Ante wrote:

Yupa wrote:

Not sure about other parts of the Autistic Spectrum, but AS isn't really all that disabling. Now here's the way I see the concept of 'disability': If you can successfully walk, talk, move, hear, see, smell, taste, and think in ways that range from slightly below average to way above average, you are not disabled.

Definitions & Diagnostic Criteria of Asperger's syndrome as defined in section 299.80 of the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders (DSM-IV) wrote:

1. Qualitative impairment in social interaction, as manifested by at least two of the following:

1. Marked impairments in the use of multiple nonverbal behaviors such as eye-to-eye gaze, facial expression, body posture, and gestures to regulate social interaction.
2. Failure to develop peer relationships appropriate to developmental level.
3. A lack of spontaneous seeking to share enjoyment, interest or achievements with other people (e.g., by a lack of showing, bringing, or pointing out objects of interest to other people).
3. A lack of social or emotional reciprocity.

2. Restricted repetitive and stereotyped patterns of behavior, interests and activities, as manifested by at least one of the following:

1. Encompassing preoccupation with one or more stereotyped and restricted patterns of interest that is abnormal either in intensity or focus.
2. Apparently inflexible adherence to specific, nonfunctional routines or rituals.
3. Stereotyped and repetitive motor mannerisms (e.g., hand or finger flapping or twisting, or complex whole-body movements).
4. Persistent preoccupation with parts of objects.

Any of the symptoms listed in the first category even on their own are enough to isolate a person socially. If you don't think social isolation is disabling maybe you don't understand how important socializing is to human beings.

People with Asperger's syndrome aren't really very different to people without it. They have similar desires, hopes and fears usually. The problem for people with Asperger's is they can't communicate with others well, therefore often what they need is ignored and so anything that can't be done on an individual basis disables the person with AS.

In the second category any of the listed symptoms will make a person eccentric to others, due to their obsessive behaviour. It can be either an obsessive interest, an adherence to routines that aren't socially average or simply atypical repetitive motor mannerisms that mark them out as unusual but either way no matter which, it makes them harder to understand from a neurologically typical point of view.

Obsessive interests aren't always socially unacceptable but if the obsession is unusual which it often can be then it is. So too is an adherence to a routine which isn't generally abided to by other humans. All this adds up to making it hard for a person with Asperger's syndrome to be accepted and integrated in social situations, essentially it is a lot easier if the other people can make allowances for those with Asperger's.

Neurologically typical people have their support networks - friends, family, acquaintances, workmates - they rely on when they can't survive on their own. If they're in emotional distress, they have support from a friend. If they want their sexual needs serviced they'll know how to achieve that goal. If they have a practical problem to be solved which they can't do on their own they'll understand how to get help off others and won't feel awkward about it.

But for people with Asperger's it's usually a case of either they lack a network of people they can rely on, the network they rely on is limited because they have trouble building it or maintaining it or they don't have a network of people at all.

That's why, personally, I see Asperger's syndrome as much of a disability as any of the other Autistic Spectrum Disorders. It all depends on how much you rate social situations as important to a person's functioning. I don't see how in a human society you can ignore how important socializing is in terms of being successful in work and being able to live functionally and heathily.

Being socially isolated is not the same as being disabled. If you are socially isolated, you still have all your senses and are capable of doing whatever you want, so long as the rules allow it.
And I'm sorry to tell you this, but you -can- work well while socially isolated. Thomas Mallory wrote Le Morte de Arthur when he was in prison, and thus, socially isolated.
And people with AS do have support networks if they're born into stable, caring families.

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20 Oct 2005, 4:40 pm

thepeaguy wrote:

Yupa wrote:

I'm not asking you to make generalizations based on me.
And I take this post as a challenge. Why didn't you tell me how your own experiences have affected you, if you want me to learn so much?

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20 Oct 2005, 8:05 pm

Grandin has done spectacular work which deserves recognition for the level of accomplishment just as a person.

But there seem to be many who write some poetry, write a biography, or do some art and it gets published simply BECAUSE they are autistic. Or have some other of a range of disorders.

It's not fair. But it's also what the public asks for, unfortunately. They keep buying. And so publishers keep publishes. Accomplishment out of mental illness is news.

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20 Oct 2005, 8:12 pm

And I never buy a biography except if I am fascinated by the person or by what they've accomplished.

I can't actually say I've read Donna Williams, Temple Grandin, or Liane Holliday Willey. Maybe at some time I will. But I find general books about autism more interesting, rather than ones about specific people.

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danlo
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20 Oct 2005, 11:23 pm

Me either, Sophist. I haven't read any works by any autistic people. I'd be interested in reading it, for curiosity's sake, but it doesn't really make them special. They publish a biography, big deal. What exactly have they accomplished? Nothing.

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21 Oct 2005, 11:22 am

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