How to fight NT-style

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From my observation, it's bad form to tackle the real issue in an argument. People argue about points that are not the actual issue they're in conflict about. Yet, both sides know exactly what they're fighting about.

My boss called me into his office yesterday, accused me of complete incompetence (not true), extreme tardiness (not true), untrustworthiness (not true), etc. The real issue was: he dumped an inhuman amount of work on me (what with me being the most hard-working in the office) and instead of keeping it a secret to protect his reputation in the company, I mentioned it to anyone who complained that I don't do all of their work.

It's very hard for me to fight without addressing the real issue. I get lost and don't have a clue what to do. I tend to forget that they're not mentioning the real issue, and waste my energy trying to prove their accusation are not true, which is a waste of time because they already know that.

Your boss is a jerk.

Yea, I've never understood how NTs can do that! I mean really... a good fight involves both people having a clue what they are fighting about.

two items:

1) welcome to capitalism!

2) in many circumstances, with enough deplomacy many NTs appreciate having someone around who will call things down to the real issues.

Your boss IS a jerk!

NTs in general are becoming worse - there is much more of the 'kinder, gentler' kind of vague, general fighting or disciplining taking place now. The big term is to be NON-confrontational.

I have been called Confrontational at every job I've ever had. For the most part I'm quite pleasant and never start a fight or try to bother people, but I tend to state the obvious. I tend to tell the truth, and I tend to be blunt.

I've told many a manager that I see no way to fix anything if the issue isn't out on the table. Not in a mean or argumentative or cruel manner, just stated and put on the table. All feelings and emotions aside, then whoever is involved can begin hammering out a solution to the problem. Then it gets fixed and we all go back to work.

I've never worked for anyone who agrees. They talk about feelings and being sensitive to others and tiptoeing around and addressing the problem without ever letting the problem person know..... just insane things that of course do not work.

It's worth stating again - Your Boss is a Jerk.

The real problem is that neurotypicals.... against the likes of us.... CANNOT win an argument because they're too irrational, and yet they're so entirely deluded that they cannot ever accept that they've lost either.

And of course while Aspergians like us will argue amongst ourselves for VERY extended periods of time if given half the chance, we are usually picking apart relevant points until we get them as picked apart as we can and end up bouncing them back and forth. Somehow arguments against Neurotypicals end up being about who "has a life" or "has the most friends" or "is being more mature" or something equally meaningless and irrelevant. Another thing they like to do is cite random phrases that do nothing to back their argument and yet they act like they're suddenly in a better position (I used to get people telling me to "stop splitting hairs" a lot, and both before and after I knew what they meant, it still didn't mean there was any point to them saying it).
It shows quite clearly that arguments to them have nothing to do with the actual logical or scientific validity of their argument so much as peer support and rhetorical impression. It basically becomes a case of "I'm right because I have a bigger pen!s"... loosely speaking. ¬_¬
The funny thing is, due to my fluently contrary nature, I tend to trust something LESS the more people support it now. I will tend to spontaneously start arguing with anyone who claims to support my point of view... likely because I refuse to play it the neurotypical way.

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I thought I was the only one who had noticed this, so glad to know I'm not alone.

Indeed, earthmom, company meetings are about going off on some irrelevant tangent and never reaching discussion about the real issue. Nothing gets solved, the hour ends, and then you get a memo from up there saying what the (bad) solution to the issue will be. The meetings are just a democracy parade. Decisions get taken according to politics only - not debate, not logic. The reason companies succeed is that other companies and people are making their decisions as illogically and politically as them, and therefore being as ineffective as them.

I was once called on by the VP during a meeting for suggesting a solution to the real issue. He literally stopped the meeting to tell me: "Greentea, we're not trying to do the real thing here, we're just trying to find a way to work the least and fill the CEO's eye the most." I didn't know then, but he had already decided to fire me at that stage - for always calling a spade a spade. Nowadays I'm careful - I never address the real issue.

In arguments with peers, it's the same rule. Indeed, as Soti says, it's not about who is talking more sense but who has more charisma/rhetoric impact and more of the present agree with him.

Which is why I tend to go into every argument like I've already won..... as Neurotypicals in my mind don't even get a say because they can't argue rationally (nullifying anything they might say to irrelevance), thus the only proper participant by default wins... and that tends to be me.

They criticise me for it, but once again... they're stupid and don't know any better, so their criticisms are irrelevant (they're always based on rhetoric, or how they think I should be in order to further THEIR goals). I win.

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When it comes to team meetings.... I generally just stay quiet. I have no great attachment to the work done by the firm. I'm just here to get paid, and that is all. If I'm asked a question, I will usually go for the answer that negates my need to contribute the fastest.

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thus the only proper participant by default wins... and that tends to be me.

Brilliant

You may not be irreplacable at your company. Every worry about job-security? I mean, it's one thing to totally not care what people think of you, but it's another to not care about having a job. Sooner or later, that James Dean act will stop working for you.

That'll look on your tombstone, Soti. What a legacy.

We're short-staffed, and for all my laziness I get things done efficiently when I can be bothered to do them at all. I don't have to care about what I do in order to do it better than many other people....
.... PLUS I have reason to believe I was brought in to fill part of a "minorities quota" .... which gives me an extra advantage (the Prospects branch of the National Autistic Society helped me get the job).

All in all... I don't seem to be in any danger of getting fired yet.




Everyone gets the "GAME OVER" screen.... whether you win the game or not. If I die knowing I'm right... who the hell cares what "legacy" I leave? Everyone is forgotten eventually.

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I think we all learn that lesson, Greentea (by the way I love green tea and am sipping some right now) It's good that you are onto it. I have found it endlessly frustrating and endlessly wasteful to putter along in those meetings. I used to offer up suggestions and solutions and answer questions because I thought it was what was expected but I, too, learned that the real purpose for the meeting is for some manager to fill his daily calendar and to prove to his superior that he met with us, nothing more. So sitting back, nodding, staying silent and getting out of there as fast as possible is the best possible way to be. The biggest problem is staying awake. That's why all the NTs have huge cups of coffee and caffeinated sodas in front of them at every meeting.

I find that meeting time is a good time to work out things that have been a problem, in my head. Math problems or things I was stuck on in my code. Sometimes lists of things to get from the grocery on the way home. I also learned to take really accurate minutes of some meetings. I wrote nearly verbatim what everyone said. It served several purposes, at times they actually asked me to repeat what someone had said, so it was useful, and mostly it kept me awake and I was able to look down and away from whoever was speaking, but with a good reason so I was seen as helpful and not disruptive.

I got a couple others to play Buzzword Bingo with me for awhile. You create your own bingo card using the big buzzwords that you always here from these idiots in meetings and then when you hear your phrase spoken at the meeting you cross off that square. The first to get Bingo makes a gesture. We used to scratch our nose and the others knew we'd won. It made the time pass and was fun to do but you have to have cohorts to play along with you and not give the game away to a boss.

Loved it about the huge coffees and caffeinated sodas, and the bingo game!! !

I usually use the time to observe how NTs act with each other.

Oh, and I drink lots of green tea too.

Some NTs can argue rationally. Not all, but some. I don't like to presuppose things like that, because then you miss out on the people who can hold a decent conversation. And you can't say every Aspie is completely rational either--especially the younger ones, who haven't learned to take advantage of their strengths yet. I'm only starting to, and I'm already 25.

Spot on. My NT husband is always bitching about things that we have already sorted out. He just doesn't get it, no matter how many times I spell out the logic step-by-step. I wonder if he has a learning disorder. So now when he tries to pick a fight with me, instead of laying out the logic again, I just insult him. Shuts him right up. I've never insulted anyone before, I had to learn how.