a weak (sense of) self - putting the TRIADE in perspective

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So, I had been reading up on autism...
And I had become the very suspicious reader that I can be...

The above refers to the blog I have just posted, because I needed to clarify the background of the topic I wish to address -
but it is of too much importance to me to risk scaring off any interested party by the mere size of the post.

So, if you want to know 'where I am coming from' (as the awful saying has it): please refer to my blog of today 10/10.

I was unhappy with this thing called (weak) Planning & Executive Function.
How did that relate to me...? Granted, I do recognize a problem in getting things done, but once I get going... And I simply know I am a great planner, with unusual keenness to the flaws of the plan. And as much as there might be a problem with the execution of things, I always 'knew' there to be an underlying cause: why, what was the point...?

That question was one of 'making sense'. Neither was it addressed by the theory of the (weak) Theory of Mind, the second main theory. I first came accross the term, in passing, when reading Attwood. I knew instantly what was meant, and, in my own mind substituted ToM with PoV (Point of View, not a large leap for a student of literary theory).

Here on WP, ToM instantly leads to heated arguments as to whether or not we have empathy or not. I do not want to get into semantics right now, so I'll leave that as is, for now.
PoV however put me on the track of perspective, and I remember Tony Attwood mentioning something about the perception of depth.

And that, with some rewording, took me almost fluently to theory number three: (weak) Central Coherence. Could that be connected with PoV - yes, obviously. At a certain abstract level one could argue that perspective would be very hard to achieve if one does not have a firm point of view to take perspective from.
Yes, there has to be merit to this CC thing. I can see all sorts of pros&cons with the ToM-thing....

Then there is the TRIADE. For autism to be diagnosable, there has to be impairment in all three of the following areas of behaviour:
- social interaction
- communication
- imagination.
How does that apply to me? Well, I'll just say it does, i am occasionally told that it's obvious once you know it; but I don't remind people of autism, not even at third sight. I'm just way to good with my eyes & way too sharp in my reading of others.

[Again, I do not yet want to get into semantics; my view on the matter: yes, I do lack in ToM; the fact that I can intuitively & almost instantaneously can understand and appreciate a second person's PoV does not mean I can actually empathize.]

Self-diagnosis or self-description are not my aim here. The point is my continuous doubting "yes, i can see that... BUT... What, for instance, is the essential difference between social interaction and communication.

One of the reasons why I don't show problems in social interaction, is that, you have to know me long term te become aware there is very little 'sharingness' either to or fro. As I live alone, obviously this is a problem only in terms of absence.

NO, THERE MUST BE SOMETHING ELSE

One of the things I have experienced in my solitary life
[pre-dx, i.e. without knowing I am autistic]
is a problem with my writing. I have never been able to consistently put it enough work to produce prose, but there is a little bit of poetry from between 23 to 27 years of age. I remember finishing one poem, and suddenly knowing that could have been the last thing I would ever write.

I have written a couple of really good ones, with a certain internal multi-layered compactness of quality. I do have a sense of quality. However, around 27 I have lost my inner sense of quality. I have also had the feeling that somehow my language had fallen apart.

This of course had very little to do with 'normal writing', you may have noticed I am not illiterate, this had to do with MyLanguage - my own brand of linguistic (in Dutch mainly syntactical) deviation. Let's just say that when I try to express myself creatively, I find I need to & do bend the rules. However, that requires a continuous checking-within as to whether what you are producing is still related-connected with yourself, or might be the mere product language-generating-more-language.

This mental checking-within can be put into a number of images:
does it echo within, does it click, does it sing - simply:
does it live, that thing I just wrote?

And only now can I say what I meant by this feeling that my language had fallen apart: I lost the connection between language and me.

Then, I would have said (and in fact I do so again):
my main problem is that I don't have contact with myself.

In retrospect, one could wonder whether, as an autistic, I have ever truly been in touch with myself.

In conclusion:
considering also the truthfulness of truisms like 'to be able to love, you need to love yourself first;

I believe there is a weakness and/or lack of self, that causes an certain (type of) inability to make 'real', full contact, simply because there is not enough self to make contact with.
This automatically will cause a sense of insecurity.

It is only secondarily, in social contact, that all those other triadic problems come to play. When you contact with you is affected, contact with anything non-you will be affected.
Non-you includes the world, in contact with which many of us suffer all sorts of sensory problems; and other people - which implies affected social interaction, including communication.

I don't think it is a huge leap to relate affected imagination to a weak-self and self-awareness.

Thought provoking post, oblio.

>>I believe there is a weakness and/or lack of self, that causes an certain (type of) inability to make 'real', full contact, <<

I remember reading about a study that would support this assertion. The investigators asked ASD and NT subjects to tell a story or answer questions (I forgot which--I think the latter), and they tallied the number of references each subject made to him/herself--all "I"'s, "me"'s, etc. ASD'ers referenced themselves far less often than NT's. The authors hypothesized that ASD'ers have a less defined/developed sense of self. I'm paraphrasing here from distant memory, so I might not quite have it right. If I find the article, I'll pass it on to you, if you're interested.

The ramifications for this, of course, are as fascinating as they are widespread. I can definitely relate to your discussion, as I have always felt that my "self" is a vague apparation of sorts.

oblio, I can relate to pretty much everything you wrote here, especially regarding writing prose. I've been blaming that on weak executive functioning and hoping it will be treated with meds when I finally get organised enough to go to the doctors to get them.

your theory sounds a bit strange but I'll definately have to think it through a bit more.

<there goes my sleeping tonight>

by "not enough self to make contact with" do you mean understanding/interpreting your own emotions? is that where your language problem is coming from?

I believe there is a weakness and/or lack of self, that causes an certain (type of) inability to make 'real', full contact, simply because there is not enough self to make contact with.
This automatically will cause a sense of insecurity.

well it's weird how people treat you like you're invisible and voiceless, you know the way aspies get ignored. We don't register with THEM as full personalities, but that's true of most disabilities - one is classed as not 'real', not a full citizen.

I have a strong and pervasive sense of self. I cannot recall not having a strong pervasive sense of self.

thanks anna-banana,

[there is more where it came from, but that is no longer based on my own train of thought - and i do not yet want to go there]

my aim of the post was precisely that:
maybe don't even think about it anymore,
but put it on a very small burner way in the back of you mind

- sadly, i don't think there are meds for our kind of ED
- however, on topic: try to 'feel' around in yourself as to why on earth you are suffering from executive dysfunction
- actually, i blame my ED on a 'lack of organisation' (your words) (amongst other things); btw: you don't have to be organised to get to the doctor

- by "not enough self to make contact with"
i do mean 'understanding/interpreting your own emotions', however,
only as a for instance, and, more importantly, only as a result.

? is that where your language problem is coming from >>
it's a thought isn't it

IMAGERY: is autism like struggling with chronic writer's block?

okay: before interpretation comes perception
? do 'we' have problems with self-awareness? if so, why?
is it because of a perception problem, or is it that we are mistakingly attempting to perceive something that is not there

or both

in terms of the triade: i would postulate that 'self'
(whatever that might be & however it might be 'formed')
is very directly linked to the imagination aspect

with affected imagination, i am not surprised to note that our secondary behaviour (social interaction including communication) would be affected
ha! i would say imagination (of self) is exactly what is required for a ToM

Last edited by oblio on 11 Oct 2008, 2:24 am, edited 1 time in total.

thanks Biogeek, please do

i was always more or less left to my own resources
[which is not a good idea for an aspie-auti]
never realised i did not 'connect' with others in that sense -
for a sufficient number of reasons not to assume any type of lunacy

i have always had to look out for & over myself
& with vague writer's illusions from my early teens i have always
kept an honest eye at myself (i.e. not my self) -
as a writer you MUST be honest to yourself
also because any wisdom must come from at least truth and honest
knowledge of your own experience -

since my self-identification and dx, i have been suddenly seeing so many things in my own past behaviour

to me, one indicator of poor self: an insecurity of taste
chosing that particular item of clothing in the shop
and not even under peer pressure
and putting it on you know it's preposterous:
it was not the right choice - not for you at all,
but also nowhere near peer fashion

and you know that you're once more in for your lot of bullying,
and now they're even right
jeez, thank X, that i at least was smarter than the whole lot put together

on the rather passive (ED) side, i do psychologically tend to experience the more female type of problems; looking back i was always more of the little philosopher than the little professor

i have grown into my own very ecclectic me:
i am one of those adaptive chameleon-type aspies
which i believe are more often of the female variaty, BUT
i am the pink chameleon (which is by no means intended gayly) -
i have excellent taste, and somehow - both in all the various patches that comprise me, my persona & I ( ) - and in the whole pattern, there is a theme

and about a year ago i found there might be, no there is a name for this:
asperger, sorry: autism

(in fact: a pink chameleon was part of my business logo, i worked free lance as a 'sole proprietor'ship called oblio iii until i went bust and found myself more or less out on the street - not understanding what had just happened with so gifted a life)

I have a slight problem with accepting this- I don't like the thought that my imagination is impaired. I can usually think of scenarios, approaches and ways to solve a problem that others around me can't. I do admit though that writing about something that is not my personal experience is almost impossible for me- which I usually blame on ED.

actually, I even find writing about my own experiences and emotions quite puzzling (although I have the verbal resources to do it)

I'd rather be in denial about this. one day when I have the time and the resources I'm going to overcome this.

(damn, who am I kidding)

anyway, thanks for this post oblio, although I'm probably going to try hard to forget what you wrote 'cause I really don't like how much it applies to me and that it actually makes a lot of sense.

ignorance is bliss...