Theory of Mind ??

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On the NLD sticky thread somebody mentioned that NLDer's have problems with "theory of mind issues" can't really find anything on the net about this.....any body know what it is?

If you are truly "nonverbal," you wouldn't be able to ask.
Neither the question nor the answer would make sense to you.

They either have issues with theory of mind or problems with theory of mind.

Problems with theory of mind issues would mean something like they have problems with problems with TOM and I just don't think that is what someone intended to say.

Autism is commonly associated with a lack of or deficits in theory of mind. NLD can be too I guess?

You might want to google 'theory of mind' without the 'issues' and concentrate your research on autism. Most research is done with autism, not with NLD.

You were right about the internet search. Theory of Mind in Wikipedia is pretty clearly spelled out....even with an article about autism related to theory of mind.

I did not like what I saw because it speaks directly to me. It is about being able to see things from someone elses point of view.....a trait I lack and very much wish I had.

NLD stands for nonverbal learning disability. It means that we cannot understand the nonverbal, or we have major difficulties with it. Therefore, we tend to be highly verbal. I have NLD and I just wanted to clarify.

Theory of mind is about being able to take someone else's perspective, as someone pointed out. Some of it can be learned. I used to be part of a "perspectives" group where we practiced this and I still use it when I'm emotionally upset and unable to not take things personally. I try to see the other person's point of view.

i was told by my psychiatrist when i was about 12 what "theory of mind" is, and she told me because she had to explain what i was missing.
it is the ability to know from scantily worded sentences, what another person is feeling.
it is the ability to "read their minds" from their facial expressions, and allocate their words correctly to the "feeling" expressed on their face.

well i just hear what i am told, and if i look at a persons face, i seem to get confused, so i just look at the ground while they talk.
i can not see how they arrived at their thought, or where that thought is likely to go.
i just have no idea.

people grizzle everywhere and naught a tear do i truly understand.

A little of topic, but if this is true and 99% of the world are indeed psychic, does that mean they know how we feel? Our words don't have all that hidden meaning crap, so can they still figure out our emotions?

I believe that being "psychic" as they call it, is actually an extension of someone's natural ability to read emotionally facial expressions, body language etc. (with some clever "confidence tricks" thrown in).

Much like "Clever Hans", I believe skilled psychics are able to "read" their clients' emotional states by looking at non-verbal social signals and cues.

The "hidden meaning" is probably conveyed by these non-verbal signals.

I believe that some people are more naturally skilled at interpreting social signals than others: there's variation in "social reading" ability.

well, I have found that when we stand and sit and the way our face looks when we are saying all those unloaded with emotion words to people, they don't "get the message" and usually read into our words and action what ever they think we are meaning.

Have you ever had someone swear you were being mean to them, or being 'fake' or being something you had not even entertained in your brain? That is what I mean.

I read on the internet some of us with AS can become excellent at TOM in time, so there's hope!

I sorta got some of it, not all of it. I am slow at TOM which I have read is a typical reaction to TOM Aspies have.
I think some Aspies can skip over TOM entirely and into savant/psychic abilities so we know stuff about people without asking, apriori knowledge but it's not the same thing as TOM and I haven't figured out a theory but I'm working on it.
I don't connect psychic ability with TOM, I think it's an entirely different phenomena.

I read about TOM and AS and I agree that when we are young we are drawn to certain interests based on the way our brain operates. Some of us are intensely interested in other people, what they are doing, how they are feeling, what they are experiencing. They get satisfaction and delight in those social rituals, like dinnertime when everyone's gathered around the table.

I used to dread dinnertime and was always finished before everyone else and wanted to be dismissed early. When everyone else was still busy eating it didn't matter to me that I was being rude by wanting to leave the table, I just wanted to go do what I wanted, not sit at the table out of consideration for everyone else.

Even now I don't enjoy eating with others and would rather eat something like a Lunchable by myself. This is unusual. Most people are different, they want dinners with family or friends, like the noise of a restaraunt, even when a group of eight are all laughing like madmen at the next table.

What would I rather be doing? Driving a car, putting my thoughts in written form, yardwork, watching a show I'm interested in on TV or dreaming about fixing up houses, remodelling them or renovating them entirely. I have my own ideas and preoccupations that do not revolve around others and what they are doing or what they need from me. Often I assume they don't like me or want me around even when it's not true and this helps reinforce my inner interests and preoccupations.

What's happened to me previously is, due to my gullibility, I have been decieved so now I don't like trusting people in general. This is what NLD can lead to. I think there's ways to improve it.

NLD can lead to someone feeling bitter and with a cynical outlook.

i have been told my whole life i can be heartless and very black and white and impervious to others' points of view or feelings.
It is not heartlessness or callousness...just a very tenuous grasp on the fact other people are thinking different things to me as i am thinking something entirely different to their point of view. I am actually very caring as a person, but lack subtlety at times and have to work at the latter which is very tiring.
I have always lived with a kind of assumption about my perspective - that it is the only one. Intellectually and cognitively i know that is absurd, but in my day to day dealings, my ability to grasp others' perspectives and points of view - whilst maintaining my own - is exceedingly difficult. I also note because of hypersensitivity, I am thrown by other's views and opinions more than most people. I find the whole realm o fothers' perspectives to be a minefield of confusion - and as a result have often had my trust broken and shattered. For the most part, i steer clear of people.
So much of my ASD seems to hark back to this notion that i can only ever really cope with one thing at a time and that includes the realm of minds. My own takes precedence and others' are an unknown in day to day interactions. If I am to grasp another's perspective, then i need to work at it consciously and cognitively and this takes time and does not come naturally.

THAT'S the story of my life. I think said elsewhere, I'm like a walking mirror, and most people don't like themselves.

The better I understand people, the more horrified I become with the world in general. People are hard for me to understand because I can't relate to the lies and self-serving logic. I need to give them the benefit of the doubt, which most of them don't deserve -- call me naive or gullible. They don't understand me because they assume I'm just like them and, frankly, most people are pigs.

I definitely lack theory of mind after reading it's definition. This is a major problem for me when socialising and tend to make me naive/gullible. The assumption that people have the same intentions and nature as I do causes me much trauma. Disappointment and confusion with people's actions and words towards me and others in painful. Still do not understand why people gossip about another with cruel intentions, others will join in and set out to destroy the person.

The only option for me is to withdraw from socialising and to keep interaction at a minimum for self preservation. I cannot change the way my mind thinks in self image when interacting with people.

I know they can't figure out mine. Actually I think this is where the "aspies don't have emotions" thing comes from. Because we can't read other peoples Nonverbal cues, we don't display them properly. I have many people say I look like I'm angry all the time. I have to consciously smile to overcome the misperception.

If you want to show people what it's like to have NLD I wrote a kid's book about it.

Bubs the Robot

I wrote it for my son that seems to have AS but it's also helpful in showing other kids and even adults what it's like to have an NLD. I'm not trying to push a book on anyone, I did it for my son and have found it extremely useful explaining NLD to NTs.

the book looks good emmet. good on you. I like the illustration on the cover, too.

Thank you.