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ASPartOfMe
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13 Oct 2013, 4:07 pm

When this topic came up in another section a few days back and I mentioned that I had previously thought of bringing it up here. A poster said that is a good idea so here it is.

Before I get started this is not another one of those I found out how to convert to an NT posts. I was and will always be an Aspie. A lot of us middle age an up aspies and autists have had years and years of studying the NT ways and trying to imitate them because we were forced to and were ignorant of Aspergers/Autism. In my case there are some things like eye contact and saying "Have a Nice Day" that seem almost if not completely natural it does not seem forced or acting at times. People can change and learn new behaviors. I wonder if this is a new changed me which is good or I am the same old me who is just fooling himself which would a real mental health problem


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leafplant
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13 Oct 2013, 4:43 pm

ASPartOfMe wrote:
When this topic came up in another section a few days back and I mentioned that I had previously thought of bringing it up here. A poster said that is a good idea so here it is.

Before I get started this is not another one of those I found out how to convert to an NT posts. I was and will always be an Aspie. A lot of us middle age an up aspies and autists have had years and years of studying the NT ways and trying to imitate them because we were forced to and were ignorant of Aspergers/Autism. In my case there are some things like eye contact and saying "Have a Nice Day" that seem almost if not completely natural it does not seem forced or acting at times. People can change and learn new behaviors. I wonder if this is a new changed me which is good or I am the same old me who is just fooling himself which would a real mental health problem


successfully fooling oneself into believing one is someone other than oneself is what makes NT an NT ;)



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13 Oct 2013, 4:44 pm

It's the same you, just with new skills.


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Willard
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13 Oct 2013, 4:45 pm

It's only 'acting' until you do it so many times it becomes second nature. Then it's just a habit.



redrobin62
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13 Oct 2013, 4:50 pm

When does the real me end and the fake me begins? That is the question.



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13 Oct 2013, 4:52 pm

^When you know that you're being fake, or when your faith alone will suffice as 'evidence'.


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leafplant
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13 Oct 2013, 5:32 pm

everyone has to act, it's part of fitting into society. Obviously ASDs find it harder but they only danger is getting to the point where you are completely believing your own BS. Now, that's bad and it's specially bad because you don't know there is a problem because to you everything is fine.

As long as you retain the faculty to question yourself on a regular basis, you are fine.



ASPartOfMe
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13 Oct 2013, 7:30 pm

leafplant wrote:
everyone has to act, it's part of fitting into society. Obviously ASDs find it harder but they only danger is getting to the point where you are completely believing your own BS. Now, that's bad and it's specially bad because you don't know there is a problem because to you everything is fine.

As long as you retain the faculty to question yourself on a regular basis, you are fine.


Agree that my questioning myself is a good thing. That the answer was I am probably not fooling myself instead of definatly not fooling myself was a bit of an eye opener.


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Waterfalls
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14 Oct 2013, 6:57 am

I agree, think people can learn. But doing things to fit in is going to be more work than it is for NTs. And the outcome depends on not trying too hard, both because it is exhausting, and because it gives NTs the idea that that's your goal and you really care about fitting in. And some will be fine with that, others will engage in subtle, and not so subtle, adult bullying that can destroy you.

So I think go ahead and be nice, wish people a nice day and make eye contact in ways you and others are most comfortable with because you're a nice person and it makes other people feel good. Which can be good for you, too, as well as being nice. But don't do it to fit in, gives people the idea that's your goal, which makes you vulnerable if they choose to go after you for not fitting in perfectly and makes you vulnerable because you'll start to feel your worth depends on fitting in, rather than on other things you do well.

As an Aspie, I don't see where your greatest skills will ever be at fitting in, no matter how good you get at that. And I think the better you are at fitting in, perhaps the more you can bring something of value to this world by elevating yourself and others with making fitting in the sideline. Keeping your main focus on what brings something more of value to this world.



ASPartOfMe
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14 Oct 2013, 11:59 am

Waterfalls wrote:
I agree, think people can learn. But doing things to fit in is going to be more work than it is for NTs. And the outcome depends on not trying too hard, both because it is exhausting, and because it gives NTs the idea that that's your goal and you really care about fitting in. And some will be fine with that, others will engage in subtle, and not so subtle, adult bullying that can destroy you.

So I think go ahead and be nice, wish people a nice day and make eye contact in ways you and others are most comfortable with because you're a nice person and it makes other people feel good. Which can be good for you, too, as well as being nice. But don't do it to fit in, gives people the idea that's your goal, which makes you vulnerable if they choose to go after you for not fitting in perfectly and makes you vulnerable because you'll start to feel your worth depends on fitting in, rather than on other things you do well.

As an Aspie, I don't see where your greatest skills will ever be at fitting in, no matter how good you get at that. And I think the better you are at fitting in, perhaps the more you can bring something of value to this world by elevating yourself and others with making fitting in the sideline. Keeping your main focus on what brings something more of value to this world.


It's not and never was fitting in for fitting in's sake. It's for financial and survival reasons mostly and yes to be nice to people I do like. But whatever the motive a trap can be fallen into and a line unknowingly crossed. And I defiantly have not acquired the skills to know if NT's think I am being nice or desperately trying to fit in.


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14 Oct 2013, 12:51 pm

redrobin62 wrote:
When does the real me end and the fake me begins? That is the question.


It sounds like you are grappling with some heavy stuff at the moment.

I would say that forget about what is, 'fake', concentrate on what is real.

The way you behave isn't necessarily real. The clothes you wear, the body you inhabit...is that really you?

The real you is beyond transition, and is an unalterable fact. Look for it patiently, and that's what you will find. But don't look outward for this.

Analyse the lies, however, and you'll just get lost in the woods, like everyone else.

ASPartOfMe wrote:
People can change and learn new behaviors. I wonder if this is a new changed me which is good or I am the same old me who is just fooling himself which would a real mental health problem


Is there really much of a difference?



ASPartOfMe
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14 Oct 2013, 4:52 pm

octobertiger wrote:
redrobin62 wrote:
When does the real me end and the fake me begins? That is the question.


It sounds like you are grappling with some heavy stuff at the moment.

I would say that forget about what is, 'fake', concentrate on what is real.

The way you behave isn't necessarily real. The clothes you wear, the body you inhabit...is that really you?

The real you is beyond transition, and is an unalterable fact. Look for it patiently, and that's what you will find. But don't look outward for this.

Analyse the lies, however, and you'll just get lost in the woods, like everyone else.

ASPartOfMe wrote:
People can change and learn new behaviors. I wonder if this is a new changed me which is good or I am the same old me who is just fooling himself which would a real mental health problem


Is there really much of a difference?


I believe RedRobin62 was not talking about himself but was trying to clarify the question for me. But either way it is a good question but I am wondering if there is a fake me or I am worrying for nothing.

I think there is a difference that is why I asked the question.

As for going through heavy stuff I got diagnosed August 26 this year. So if August 26 was the a massive mental earthquake (in a positive sense) I am still experiencing some strong aftershocks(good and bad).


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Waterfalls
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14 Oct 2013, 9:12 pm

I think questioning if one is fake can be real, can be a stage of development, can also be a reaction to looking to solve a problem and hearing in response that you have this ASD label. Not a direct response, which most of us want when we are upset. And then there is the fact that some people will latch onto small differences as important, accusing you of being fake for the actions you take to survive in this world another day.

As you allude to in your last post, maybe being given an ASD label so far into one's life creates questions. We have to believe in our own experiences. Even and especially when people around us don't, because they are real, and we are quite real, and though I can't really explain why, I do believe that a diagnosis has the potential to harm as well as to help. Because that ASD label redefines everything about us as different, as if that could possibly be the case, when in fact, like it or not, human beings are all part of the same species, all of us much more similar to one another than different.

Enjoy the uniqueness that is you, if you can. I suspect other people may question whether you are somehow fake at times, like when you get some social nuance almost exactly right, but not quite. Have to leave that in them and not internalize. Most of us, NTs and Aspies, are doing our best, not trying to create a facade. So go ahead and do your best at whatever it is that matters to you!



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15 Oct 2013, 12:08 pm

Waterfalls wrote:
I think questioning if one is fake can be real, can be a stage of development, can also be a reaction to looking to solve a problem and hearing in response that you have this ASD label. Not a direct response, which most of us want when we are upset. And then there is the fact that some people will latch onto small differences as important, accusing you of being fake for the actions you take to survive in this world another day.

As you allude to in your last post, maybe being given an ASD label so far into one's life creates questions. We have to believe in our own experiences. Even and especially when people around us don't, because they are real, and we are quite real, and though I can't really explain why, I do believe that a diagnosis has the potential to harm as well as to help. Because that ASD label redefines everything about us as different, as if that could possibly be the case, when in fact, like it or not, human beings are all part of the same species, all of us much more similar to one another than different.

Enjoy the uniqueness that is you, if you can. I suspect other people may question whether you are somehow fake at times, like when you get some social nuance almost exactly right, but not quite. Have to leave that in them and not internalize. Most of us, NTs and Aspies, are doing our best, not trying to create a facade. So go ahead and do your best at whatever it is that matters to you!


The late diagnoses did not completely redefine me, it added to my definition. It provided a lot of answers and more detail to answers I knew (I was different, poor social skills etc). But as with anything that provides answers there is always a question or two and this is it. As far as people thinking I am fake nobody has said that to my face, in fact a number people have said the opposite which is great. If they thought I am fake and did not tell me I would have no clue about that for obvious reasons.

Good or bad in the long term (I think it will be good) there is no undoing the diagnoses now. I have two support group meetings this week including one for over 50. I am sure they are going through or have gone similar questioning. I would hope the diagnoses would change me, it would be a lot of wasted time and money if it didn't.


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Wildcatb
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23 Oct 2013, 5:09 pm

redrobin62 wrote:
When does the real me end and the fake me begins? That is the question.


But that I could answer that question for myself. There seem to be several different 'me's that manifest depending on the situation. I think that instead of learning social cues in the way an NT does I've simply (that's not the right word) developed a wide range of rote responses. When people say certain things it triggers certain responses but there's no real deeper meaning to them most times. It's as if I'm reciting lines in response to cues.

I've done a great deal of introspection and retrospection since being directed to this site, and in looking back I see that I've done this with most groups with which I interact. I'm not really part of these groups, but have learned to say and do the right things and to be accepted by them, like Goodall among the apes.

I've never understood why I felt like an outsider despite doing and saying the right things and apparently acting in the right ways, until I found this place and realized that I was in fact acting, whereas the people with whom I've been interacting have for the most part just been being themselves.

It's been liberating in a sense, but also rather terrifying. I wonder if I've never really developed my own personality, instead relying on playing a series of roles in an unending play.



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23 Oct 2013, 6:16 pm

People change. People learn, grow and improve. It's not so much about the behaviour you exhibit, but the why and the reason that will make your words and actions honest or fake.