Aspie "Clear Sight"

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This is somewhat related to the "Black and White thinking" thread. That's a good thread to read along with this post.

Does anyone else see people/situations CLEARLY, not bogged down with false loyalties to friends/strangers, jobs/employers, etc?

There was a series of questions on an employment application that asked if I would do anything about someone stealing from the store. And then it asked if I would do something if it was a "friend" who was stealing from the store.

"Clear Sight" says that stealing is stealing (black and white thinking) and it is wrong. And that person does get security called, no matter who it is.

In thought, I would be MORE offended by a friend who thought they could steal in my place of employment if the reason was that they thought they could get away with it, because I was there, and I was their "friend". What kind of friend would that be?

It hasn't mattered in my past who does it, it is the WHAT is done that makes the difference. So that if someone was a friend, and was unkind, I would have to rethink the friendship. If someone I really disliked was kind, I would have to rethink why I disliked them.

That breaks down the black and white thinking into various components, like maybe I can't talk to the "friend" about one thing or be around them when they are doing something wrong. And I might find that I have things in common with "the enemy" in certain circumstances. It's infinite, and each part is examined and reexamined. Subject to change without notice.

I have found that NTs are extremely resistant to this "Clear Sight". It's as if their own "black and white thinking" is absolute. Um, hmm, so that if they have made up their mind, on anything, regardless of how their opinion or judgment was based, if there were facts or rumors or "well, my friend said this", it's all there is. They are not willing to consider possible errors in their analysis.

Things that have irked me is the unwavering loyalty to people who do not deserve it. Watching people pick apart something, while being completely blind to the fact that they do it to. It can be simple, like picking apart a sports team. Their own favorite sports team can do no wrong, but the other team is full of mistakes. Fundamental Attribution Error.

Co-workers. School mates. And all over online. I tried to show a few people where someone was doing to me what it had been claimed I was doing to them. I didn't feel I was doing what was said. But I had examples of what they were doing to me. Completely ignored. The proofs were not acknowledged.

And it's much easier online as everything is right there. It's not hearsay or distorting some past conversation, the conversation still exists. The people still do not see. Because they seem to have absolute "Black and White Thinking" that cannot be swayed with facts. Hah! While some Aspies that I have noticed here, seem to have "Clear Sight", and can reassess what has occurred to see it in a different light.

That could be due to our processing. Simple example, if I misinterpret words, and someone explains what they meant, it is easier to see that new meaning. I probably already ran through many meanings and had to pick one of them. I just picked the wrong one. Once it's explained, I can understand.

I want to know if ANYONE else can relate to this at all. ANYONE!

Yes.. well understood and well put.

Completely. For instance, how many Aspies could even fully understand, much less agree with, the philosophy currently prevalent in the world of rap, of "no snitching"? This is carried to such an extent that in a recent interview, a major rap star said, in so many words, that if he learned a serial killer were living next door, he wouldn't call the cops - that's "snitching".

Me? I'd be on the phone like a shot - that's "self-preservation", not to mention "self-respect".

ANd if it turned out I knew the guy, I'd go down to the station to make a positive ID. Nobody gets to misuse my gullibility like that, at least not more than once.

Oh, I'm so glad that others feel that way. In that NT world, no one understands.

And yeah, I am a firm believer in Justice. Which gets me labeled as a snitch too. All these people that complain about things, they complain, but do nothing. No one is a mind reader. The police cannot know if there is a crime if no one tells them. New laws can't be passed unless people get involved.

Justice requires truth.

I had sent an NT person the proof of what was done, to show that I did not do what was said, and also showed them that it was the other people that were actually doing it. I see later on that the note I sent was considered "nasty". I offered proof of other people's activities. And completely removed the doubt as to who posted when and where.

Who is following whom? Who is harassing whom?

And nobody else but me sees it. Nobody. Even with links and proof, people would rather turn away from the truth than be faced with the fact that they were wrong.

Me? I'm wrong all the time. I get meanings wrong. I misinterpret. I misunderstand. I'm used to it. I don't hold on to those things in desperation because I once thought something was true. Otherwise I'd still believe in the Easter Bunny. I like the bunny concept and the cute kids clothing and the colorful treats. Maybe it gives the children some joy.

I sometimes wonder if the make-believe things are a disservice. Our childhoods filled with magic and possibilities, only to find they were lies. They are lies. Are facts not full of the same fantasy? I feel I've been imprinted with fairy tale princes and they never come. Living life as a "before" Cinderella, surrounded by evil everything, and the goodness never gets to show. It's trampled down, by not just a few repressive step-sisters, but all of society.

Are there any Aspie-Aspie relationships here? I'm just wondering. It would be so nice to share time with someone that would understand. Not just romantic things, but like best friends or buddies.

We have each other online, but does anyone have other Aspies in daily life to talk to?

And can anyone add in personal experiences? Did anyone else ever see the truth? Or was it just yourself?

I am another of those Aspies that adhere to the letter AND spirit of the law. I find lots of people my whole life think I am 'pretending' to be so 'straight' and I should 'let my hair down' and 'relax' because 'no one' actually 'thinks that way'. BALONEY!
I do and I would give the dude up to the cops in a shot!
so burn my house down.

oh, yeah, and by the way, I meet once a month with other Aspies for face time. I don't care much for it. I am the only one that has a job, and the only one that lives on their own. I can't relate to them much, and they certainly can't relate to me working and going grocery shopping with only 30 bucks in the bank and trying to make it till payday a week away and still be able to eat. I guess all they do is put their feet under the table when they have to eat.
So I don't relate much, and think that some of them have just stagnated by being taken care of, sorta left with no challenges they can't just dump when the going gets rough. Me, I would freak out and melt down if someone even TRIED to make my decisions for me. They seem to expect others to do so.

so. . maybe it is just those I have met, I seem to get along much better with folks on the WP.

sincerly,
Merle

I'm very conscious of the law, and a higher law. Many laws are stupid. They are enacted due to some feverish pitch after an event. I suppose the biggest one was all that stuff AFTER 9-11. Where all the airline passengers were treated like potential criminals. I have no idea how many people fly on airlines, but all of them are not criminals.

Local things where there is a kind of crime and then everyone is upset. The VTech shooter. "Why didn't anyone do anything after reading his stories?" I dunno, but nobody has gone after the people who write the creepy/scary novels or produce horror/crime movies. Is it a disturbed mind or a creative one that writes screen plays and books? It could be a bit of both.

One dog that was mistreated/ill-bred/trained to attack happens to maul one person, and there is widespread terror over all dogs of that breed or dogs of that size or just dogs in general.

One whack job who kills/maims, someone else doesn't mean we will all do it. Or that every dog will do it. Or that every airline passenger will do it. Clear Sight. I see that. Why don't other people see that?

I can see that there are people that should not have kids, pets, or be around anyone at all. Because they are not good people. They will mistreat their kids or elders or animals or employees.

I like laws though, they allow us to predict. If everyone followed the laws, like traffic laws, and used a wee bit of uncommon sense, we'd all get where we wanted to go without accidents and we'd be less frustrated. It would be safer.

Do others also have a strong sense of fairness or equality? And get upset when life is not fair?

I guess this clear sight "right is right and wrong is wrong, and it ain't up for discussion" is part of an aspie "survival strategy": One thing is that unwritten, "ethereal" social code -- the least we can do is to conform perfectly to the written rules.

On the other hand, I've leaned through the school of hard knocks that being "Jimmy-Do-Right" doesn't always help. In the end, the rule turns into: "Do not 'snitch' (as that rapper guy put it) unless you're 'snitching' about some wrong activity or deed that directly interferes with your daily life -- even though you're witness to some horrible wrong-doing". One thing is the bad guys figuring out who reported them, but also most often if you actually call the cops because you see someone e.g. steal or vandalize somthing, they probably won't do anything about it, because they're dealing with something that takes priority over theft and willfull property damage...

I don't think it's that NTs see more black and white at all. They see in a constant haze of gray where they don't have to see what really happens. I've found the truth scares them and making judgements about people and thing scares them even more. They are afraid to see the world as it really is. If you bring it up, they retreat into their pretty fantasy and say it makes them feel better. I find that funny. I don't get any comfort from fantasy. I only care about what is.

I see them in relationships all the time and they have no idea why they are, yet they think I am harsh because I see my relationships for exactly what they are. They also think it's harsh to just state the facts as they are. I find that funny. Politeness is just lies and I point that out to them frequently. I love the line, "I didn't tell him he disgusted me when he kissed me because I didn't want to hurt his feelings." I always say, "Don't you think it's going to hurt his feelings more when he thinks you've actually liked him for awhile and then you finally lower the boom because you can't take it anymore?" They will always say, "I didn't think of that." To which I respond, "Do you ever think?" I mean really, do they ever think at all?

It goes back to the lunacy that shrinks think we need to be like NTs. Oh really. Based on what exactly? I'll pass. This is precisely why I don't want to see those hacks. I'd laugh in their face at that suggestion. Be like the illogicals, Zanne. Of course you should be just like them so you won't know what you really think or want either. That's the way to true happiness. Okay.

Beautiful.

I feel the same. There have been times when my strong (and I mean STRONG) sense of justice has wavered, though, such as when I worked in a grocery store many years ago and observed an old lady putting food in her purse. There'd been times when I had to steal food in order to live, too, so I turned my head.

ScramJet:

What is your avatar? Why do I know it, but I have no name for it?

I realize that the police have priorities. And I sincerely agree with their priorities. If they can stop a murder or beating, I want that more than them coming out to investigate some guy working on his car on a public street.

However, by reporting the guy on the street, it goes into records somewhere. And if there is illegal dumping, as there has been, of automotive parts (like there's a transmission in the bushes), and I've made umpteen reports of the same people doing the same things, there's a good lead on who it might be. Right?

These creeps dump used motor oil directly on the earth. Next to a lake. The lake is over our underground aquifer that provides drinking water. I think that oil dumping is pretty darned serious. I don't want 10-40 coming out of my tap. Ya know?

The police reports can be anonymous. One does not have to give their name. And if a criminal is being obvious, it could be anyone. Right? What about this? I heard a man screaming at his woman to "shut that f-ing kid up" and he was slamming things around in his apartment. That "kid" was a newborn infant. Yeah, let the creep come and yell at me or even hit me, do not take it out on a baby. I called the police.

No one will treat babies or kids or elders or others like that, in my earshot. No one will treat the environment that way if I can see them. What if everyone turned away? On the other hand, what if everyone got involved? If everyone reported what they heard and saw. Police would know where to look, where to go, who was doing what. When they have a chance, they would know.

I saw someone driving erratically, and I did call the police from the doctor's office. I had memorized the plate number. I was worried not just for me, but for all people. I have made "citizen's arrests" on drunk drivers. The police would not have witnessed the driving, but I did. And I followed them with my hazard lights on, so that people behind were aware. It's like being a mom to the world. Everyone is my kid, everyone deserves to be protected, including those who are drunk or abusive. The drunk could learn not to be drunk. And the abusive person could learn not to be abusive. Right?

And that benefits ALL of us. Sometime in your life, you will find a friend or family member has died due to something like a drunk driver, or from being drunk. Wouldn't you like to have had that prevented? How else would it be done?

======

Zanne, maybe it is the truth that is so frightening. I hear them say all the time about how they don't want to pass judgment, while they are passing judgments. Hah! I respond that if there are no judgments, there is no wrong.

I am almost certain that the kinds of thinking that is done by NTs in general is inferior. Not all, of course. It's never "all this are that". But when I point out inconsistencies, they react like they have never considered those things.

Doctors? I spend a lot of time guiding them. I know that I learned a lot in school, all of which I've mostly forgotten. So do doctors. *I* am the one with the time to look up new medications online and investigate possible side effects. I have bad side effects to a lot of medications.

No, I'm just depressed, not manic-depressive or bi-polar. Me in "manic" stage is me as "normal". When I am physically feeling okay, and have had good nutrition and sleep. It is rare that I am in that manic type stage these days with my back, which causes so many problems sleeping.

It's the "Clear Sight" that causes a lot of the depression. Seeing the world as it is, hurts.

I follow my own “code” unwaveringly and unknowingly; I always have…, without care for social norms, illogical forms and governmental horns.

I had to learn to see it as it is, change what I could effectively change and ignore the rest. I don't want to be mom or babysitter of the world and waste my own life on them. I'm not a nuturing person anyway. I won't let a baby or old person get beat up, but I won't spend my time on people who choose to ignore the facts and live in fantasy. I don't bother to judge whether the gray thinking is inferior. It's their life and they can live how they choose. I don't subscribe to it and I am not going to listen to it, but away from me they can do what they like. The fact of the matter is that whether they are afraid of looking at the world through realistic eyes or not, they make a choice to do what they do. They choose not to see. That's their choice and they have to live with the consequences which they do when they go through multiple relationships and letdowns that they have lived their life by someone else's rules. Those are the consequences. There are consequences to the way I choose to live my life and I accept those because to me it is worth it. We all have to choose our own path.

I don't have much of a social conscience and I think that is the combination of Asie traits and an INTJ personality. Even NT INTJs do not care too much for what others think. I just take that to a whole new level.

Your sense of justice did not waver, for justice is not merely the following of laws. Sometimes, to serve justice, some laws must be averted. Justice also requires mercy and compassion.

This is an interesting topic to me, because if I do not report something being done wrong, I actually get physically uncomfortable. At work, they always talk about how everything has to be done "by the book". I often have to wonder what book they use, because all of our manuals tell us to do it one way, but when I do it that way, I get screamed at because "we don't want official records" or "we can't blame that on supply". What in the world is the point of having a manual if you don't follow it? What are the point of rules if you don't follow them? This issue is why I am either very good at running a work center, or very bad. It depends on whether or not they actually go by the rules. In my current line of work, they do not because to do so would expose flaws in the system and other areas that we rely upon, instead making other people take a share of the blame to make everyone look just a little bad. This, to me, especially in light of the current efforts to improve our processes, is ridiculous.

I often get asked why I can't just do it their way, and why I have to be a "snitch". Like the rest of you, this attitude baffles me. I see no blame or malicious wrongdoing, just things that can be fixed, but when you try to do things right and get the problems fixed the people who have to answer up and/or change how they are doing things act like you just killed their dog or something. They will viciously fight back (had to deal with a few of those), and try to make your life misearable.

In effect, this whole attitude has made me decide that I truly want to work for myself. At least I can follow the rules, giving me that sense of comfort that is so absent from where I work right now (US Navy).

Cobalt, ordinarily I'd advise ignoring the infighting, but my God! This is the US military we're talking about - if your superior officers want to screw with readiness and try to blame some other department, by all means, head straight over to the JAG, and turn their asses in! This cannot be permitted to stand. Their attitude is the same one that almost ruined the Armed Forces after Vietnam - "go along to get along", "don't rock the boat", all that other crap. And it ended up with commanders of aircraft carriers needing an armed escort to go below decks...

CobaltFire, I agree with Deacon Blues (look, two hues of blue!). If you can't live with yourself, what kind of life do you have? I feel the same kind of cognitive dissonance and I suffer dearly. One thing that might help you is to begin your own record keeping. Who, what, where, when, how, etc. While things are still fresh in your mind, write them down.

You want it someplace safe, and away from the people you work with. One thing you could do is to set up an email account somewhere, not connected to your own home computer. And log your entries at the local public library to send to yourself at that email address. Never logging on to that address from home. I don't know how serious the things are that you are talking about, but it would help to keep a record away from the job and home.

When you have collected a substantial amount of information, that's when you do the JAG thing.

I had tried to do something similar. Not at work but on another site. *I* got in trouble for collecting the information. It was "proof" of something that was being done. I did give it to their authorities, but it was too late. They'd already hung me out to dry.

Realize that whistle blowers are a different breed of person. Here is an article for your consideration:
http://www.usatoday.com/money/companies ... main_x.htm

Most people cannot handle that kind stress. They aren't that honest or they really don't care. I have things eating away at me from the past where I wished I'd done or said something. I didn't. A lot relates to childhood too. But I figure it's NEVER TOO LATE to begin being the person I am inside. The person who NEEDS justice and truth and MUST speak out about it.

There are a few cases where to do so, it would risk too much. That also relates to Deacon Blues comments about Justice encompassing mercy and compassion. That is true too.

Is it "Justice" to arrest a hungry person for stealing food? What kind of world do we live in where there is plenty of food to go around, but it's not shared. Some of us get fat from the plenty, while we ignore hungry people in our own neighborhoods or in our own world.

There are spoken/written rules in all companies that sound just fine. But they don't follow through with them, and have numerous unwritten rules that sometimes are opposite of what they claim to be.

I would like to see that end. It's dishonest. And I do not know how to play that game that has deadly consequences (sometimes). Those unwritten rules "killed" me on another site, by getting me booted off.

I READ the rules, and thought I was following them. I saw others that were not following them. I reported them. The majority of the people who break the rules constantly and consistently are still there. I don't think some of them were even warned for rule breaking. Even though I gave many examples.

The whistle blower can expect to lose their job, their account, their housing, their whatever it is they are exposing. Unless you have a huge backing, like some organization to help with the complaint, you will stand alone. And you will be dismissed. Or evicted. Or arrested. Or something.

Work on a backup plan too. If you lost your job tomorrow, do you have enough money to get by for several months? Three months is good, six months ideal. If not, start working on paying off debt and moving to a less expensive place and cut other expenses. Because you may well lose that job.

You might get some kind of unemployment or settlement, but that's a long way down the road. You need to be concerned with YOU. And they know that. That's why they can get away with crap, as you need that paycheck.

Most major metro areas have an Attorney Referral Service. It's probably in the white pages under attorney. Gee, I'd have to look. For a scant fee (like $25.00) you can talk to an attorney about your problem. They can help you decide if you should or shouldn't do something.

For instance, one of the consultations I had, I mentioned being "kind of disabled". He said "You either ARE or ARE NOT disabled, find out, apply for Social Security". I needed that push. I was in denial about my back and my depression. I was magically going to get better. That hasn't happened yet.

Try out that Attorney thing, just for ideas. It's sad, but they might even suggest to run like heck from that job ASAP and don't look back. That's because attorneys know the game. They play it for a living.