Why is aspie separatism/supremacy controversial?

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If anything it is going in the other direction, the mixing of lines that were genetically stable, producing an autistic output.

While I can find some historic records that seem autistic, they come from all groups. There was not an autistic tribe.

Autism is a focus because of the disabiity factor, that which does cost a lot of money.

The other side of the coin is Asperger who found the same traits in very productive people.

While just about everyone wants to speak for non verbal autistics, Asperger's and outward are ignored, but it also comes with a social cost. Lost productivity, higher unemployment claims, and missing out on the gifts of a difference in thought and perception.

We as a group would not be able to deal with the LFA situation. Most public thought about autism has to do with Institutions, Group Homes, and we could not change that.

I have been in favor of Striking Asperger's from the DSM. Where it started, it was about people who lived fairly normal lives, yet showed special interests, the Little Professors who self educated deeply in one subject, and also had some autistic traits. Asperger's type cases went on to lead normal lives.

I could do nothing about DSM forms of Autism. A lot of study, funding, has not been able to do anything much. Every disability rights group wants to claim them, and anyone else for their disabled neurodiversity goals. I do not share those goals.

I see a much larger group outside of the DSM who do have sub clinical autistic traits. Just one little sneaking little trait can cause massive life problems. This is outside the range of the DSM, they do define disability grade, most do flunk the test. All humans have some quirks.

What we have is a fairly large group, perhaps 9% of the population, who share autistic quirks. It is about equal to those who share depression. Depression is not well known at the Patent Office, Broader Autism Phenotype has produced some useful advances.

They do seem to be a problem fitting to mass education, where social skills trump the focused study of one subject at a time. Neither the social setting, or the way courses are taught get the most out of the slightly autistic.

NTs report highschool is stressful. It is counter productive to autistics. While some do excel at academics, it has to be done in an alien world.

My world was things, and parts of things, and school held little interest. We were a mismatch, I relate to machines, all they could offer was math. The best the system could offer in the day was Engineering, and Shop Class made bookends. Out of school I was working European car engine rebuilds at 15, and IBM punch card computers at 18. I did run them, and made repairs as needed.

I am not so strange, for BMW runs motorcycle mechanics schools, some is to keep the dealers and Brand running, but what they look for is people like me, natural mechanics, and they soon talk them out of motorcycles and into things like the aircraft division where on the job training is continous. The educational system does not turn out people like me, but when building planes, you need us. Someone has to spot the errors of Engineers.

I knew a guy who joined the Airforce, they test broadly to place people in the best job. He, at 17, placed out of being a truck mechanic, so they gave him the aircraft mechanic test. He passed all but two questions, and those he marked as being wrong. He did pass for being an aircraft mechanic, but it upset them being told they were wrong, thousands of people had taken the test.

It caused a stink, he was told to withdraw, he refused, it went up the chain to the base commander, who forwarded it to his commander, and who forwarded it again, and it came back as the new test with two questions changed. At 18 he was made an inspector of aircraft mechanics.

When he was right and the Air Force and the Department of Defense was wrong, he told them, and stood his ground. The Air Force promoted him, BMW would hire him now.

This is just one place our traits are in demand.

I hear that in European education there is broad testing around eighth grade, and the tracks from there lead more toward natural aptitude. It is better to be a Licensed Electrictian than a University dropout.

In America, years are wasted in High School, before you can get in a Trade School, and many never finish high school. Europe starts the track four years sooner, and education is never wasted.

Then comes work, where no matter how good you are, you can work for someone else. The self employed in America produce most of the new jobs, technologies, and this is ignored by the educational system. Self Employed and small business are treated like runaway slaves.

The System of Government and business owns the people, and anything they produce. They are the enemy.

So for us to cash in on our talents we should stay secret, network through from conception, product design, manufacturings, marketing, and keep the money.

I don't see us changing the educational system, but modified guilds could pick up on trainees, and get funded for it. They might have an automotive program after high school, but I build fifty year old machines. I like small worldwide markets. I know most of the field, six people, and several have quit because they make money selling parts and cannot find a talented mechanic. The jobs are there, customers willing to pay, but no one to do the work.

The American educational system is based on finishing the University, having $50,000 in student loans, then learning real work on the job. There are no jobs. Employers cheery pick the top 25%, the rest are also rans and in lifetime debt.

There can be better paths to learning general business, becoming self supporting, avoiding debt, becoming established in a trade and hiring a few people.

It is up to us to train, our personality types, talents, and we have a lot to work with.

It would be a model of an educational system that could be applied to the whole.

So... what next? Will we have a Final Solution for all non-aspies?

Non Aspies are the customers, the final solution will be from inturnal purges.

Like any group, there are those who would sell us all out.

Many would see us fail to advance disability rights, others have bought the defective in need of drugs story. Some feel they have it made in the NT world, and would not want us around, because it would lead to their discovery.

NTs are not our enemy, nor are they capable of being traitors.

The narrow focus is our world, and here it is gaining an education in how we think, how we make a living.

We are not the disabled, but the impaired making our way through life.

Our best is that our ways of education and work can be applied to all.

I would think as we have to learn social skills as a second language, we would also do that better than the natural skills gained on the playground of grammer schools which are so common, then carried into the adult world without thought.

This is an incredible post all around. I'm really glad that I started it and that the debate this topic has provoked is of this caliber.

I can see points of view from all sides and feel like my eyes have been open quite a bit.

Here is a question about separatism/evolution: can we assume that with technology in its current postition we are able to overcome our flaws with AS? (flaws that are not based on NT judgment but our personal shortcomings) A big example for me is directions. I have absolutely no sense of directions (dyslexics unite) but after finding a GPS I was in a much better place.

As for people saying what they mean without passive aggressive hidden meanings: I do feel that this is higher on the evolutionary scale than "being NT polite."

I doubt it. I have trouble using such devices (I can barely navigate around computer/console games using their radar systems, cannot use maps, etc).


This is incorrect. Evolution is not rising up or heading to some particular destination. The notion of "higher on the evolutionary scale" is just plain wrong. There is no such thing.

Passive aggressive behaviours allow some confrontation while also containing it to a degree. This is adaptive in many circumstances and some people sometimes would be unable to cope without some outlet for aggressive feelings in some situations where overt aggression would be more distructive and disruptive to everyone concerned.

Good GPS devices certainly help both us and neurotypicals. However, I think aspies can work around our features with or without technology. Our thinking patterns make us better at some things than are neurotypicals, and not as good in other situations, but none of those situations are unavoidable and insurmountable.

I think the jury is out on whether technology helps aspies more or neurotypicals more. Being able to do things through computers without having to go through human intermediaries probably helps us more. However, the social networking aspects of the web probably help neurotypicals more.

I don't think you can even divide it up that way. The benefits work for everyone. Online shopping helps people who can't abide stores (could be AS) and it also helps people who like stores just fine but don't have the opportunity to get to them (could be NT). Online networking is a joy to NT Facebookers. But it has also helped Aspies cohere into a defined group (Wrong Planet is a social network). Really it's win-win for all neurologies.

I think it depends on the person. While we do share some traits, the natural understanding of tech is as alien to some as my lack of thoughts about music.

The web does allow me to do nomal business worldwide, I do use the better printing and binding machines, understand the repair and calibration like I had designed them.

When it comes to Word Perfect, I may use 1% of the program. I don't have speakers.

Spatial Relationships, I can figure out any machine, and read maps like books, but there are other parts of life where all supports would fail me.

My music stealing customers are amazed that I have to ask them what they are trying to do. I have no desire to do it, but if you tell me I can find the pattern flaw. The flow patterns of engines and computers are obvious, yet the users are a blank.

We can relate for both are seeking an end goal.

I have learned that my personal shortcomings are caused by me not having the basic wiring. I am as good as I can get, and that is sub par. That is when it is time to shop, find someone with the skills, that meets my visual goals, I can see it, just not do it. It is like my lack of hand writing, I print, badly, yet I have very talented hands for fine machine work, optics, sculpture, I just can't write.

I am very good where I am good, but not superior, I am equal to the best, but some of them have a good hand writing, and play team sports involving a ball.

My focus on my specialest talents works, the mechanic or computer guy is not called on for much else. What I did for others I did for myself, and set up web sales. I can photograph and describe a thing, and that is what he customer responds to. In generalist situations, I fail.

I like seperation because no one here would tell me that if I would just try really hard I could improve my hand writing. They accept the parts that work, ignore the rest. We make a good group brain for even where we disagree, the reasons are stated. This is very different from the world.

I agree that evolution is just hanging out and will go with whatever is happening. Evolution has this dependancy thing, and will do anything to not be left behind. Survival of the fittest comes after what has been tried. Out of that chance and dumb luck drive survival into the future.

Evolution favors rudeness, theft, murder, genocide, "Nature red in tooth and claw." Also known as "NT Polite"

Our lack of skill at these things leads us to speaking the truth with others who do the same, and both gain. This goes against Nature, Survival, Evolution, and NT rules of the game.

In the larger context, we are defective and dumb. We are discussing how we would play a football game with the other team before the game. Most would use it to harm us, very few would think of advancing the art.

Seperation, for we will not change, in groups, for we all have those missing wiring things, but over all, we do have the highest of skills. We can play the game, first class, as a group.

I see it the same as a Business Plan, It takes organization, product development, manufacturing, marketing, and back office skills. No one has them all or can do them all. For it to work, those best must fill each job.

The business school lesson, In the choice between a company with a great staff, and a rotten product, or a great product and a rotten staff, go with the good staff, for they can always find a product, but the other will fail at anything.

In seperation we have the ability to produce a superior staff and product.

Evolution can be kept with a collar and leash.

Bill Gates original crew in Arizona, brought together for technical reasons, which worked and brought in more for intelligence, and has turned into a Microserf breeding program. It has turned into the largest autistic trait breeding program, is very well funded, and Evolution will do as it is told.

We do have our flaws and failings, but they can be good things, when the focus is on survival.

We do not fit into the world, but the world is not offering a very good deal to those who do.

Autism, the Cult you can never quit!

In my opinion, our flaws are our strengths. So the question is kind of meaningless. What strengths would you have, if you where illiterate? (compared to an illiterate NT)

(My crack pot theory: NTs just follow there instincts, that are on average correct but can not be overridden, we can use our heads and get beater then average results, dependent on access of information.)



Evolution is not about fairness or justice, its about pushing your genes in the next generation. Theres a balance to be stroke, between cooperation and conflict. If you mean by "higher on the evolutionary scale" that pressure for cooperation went up, i agree. In the prehistoric past, we where communities of 100 individuals max? Something of that magnitude. All artifacts where done with very few people. Today we live in cities of millions. The biggest artifacts require cooperation among thousands and thousands, and probably getting bigger. An over 1000 fold increase, that probably gets bigger still.



passive aggressiveness, its manageable in small groups, but as groups get bigger, problems increase exponentially.





Thats (directions) not AS, thats simply your womanhoods.
Sense of direction is a hunter thing.

No it's not. If it were my problems would be proportional to other women. They are not. I got lost trying to find a class room I had been going to every week for semester on the last class of semester. I do not know any other women in my class who had this issue. In fact a lot of the people who gave me directions and helped me find places and things were women.

It is a common problem arising in NLVD; some clinicians/researchers believe this is an exceptionally common co-morbid of AS, others believe it is AS. It has nothing whatsoever to do with what is between my legs.

I don't think it a sex linked trait, no one seems to get lost in a park, unfamilier city grids are a problem, for many, and the inside of buildings, even worse for some. I have to watch where I park my car closely, or I will never find it, or even the right floor of the parking garage. Everything looks alike, I get lost.

I have to plan routes, sometimes going somewhere I know, then finding my way from there.

When given direction by streets, I get lost, when given directions by landmarks, I find my way.

A differance in processing information.

Well I do not drive (I lack the coordination and the multi-tasking to be safe on the roads with other innocent road users), but I often cannot find the car I arrived in and tend to walk right past it if I do not keep an eye on whoever I am with. In fact when people take me places and wait in the car I often walk right past them (and the car) when I come back to the car. I did learn to recognize the car my partner and I own but then someone stole the hubcaps and this was the feature I was using to distinguish our car from other similar shaped and coloured cars, so now (a few years after the hubcaps were stolen) I still struggle to recognize our car and often walk right past it in car parks unless I hang back and keep an eye on my partner.

I once saw a documentary that focused in part on Kim Peaks. One of the physicians interviewed claimed he was not "intelligent" but merely spat out input. He "supported" this claim by stating Mr Peaks would not be able to find the car he arrived to an appointment in without assistance.....er......mmmm. Frankly I think that physician was an arrogant twat talking from a hole in his head, but we're all entitled to our opinions it would seem.

Me too. I often end up taking really round-about ways to get places because of this. I pick somewhere closer to my destination that I believe I know my way to and when I get there I do the same until I end up where I am trying to get to (hopefully).

I agree with Haywire this has been a very stimulating thread.

1. I can read a map related to open country. Memorize it to the extent it becomes a graphic outline.
walk in the area and know where I am to about 100m at any time. If you can be bothered you make points of reference and can count the number of paces, this will tell you exactly where you are but it gets very boring and you miss the scenery. Good in fog with compass. I have acute sense of direction.

I can not navigate social cartography because I can not guess the nature of the social structures I am trying to understand.

2. There may be a case for arguing complex social structures are built on relatively simple rules of behavior. These rules are like social "DNA". Change the DNA at very slight level and the seemingly complex structure is radically altered.

3. Directed passivity + honesty v structures based on BS? Which is the better structure to exist in? Trouble with BS structure it doesn't stand up too well very long. Because the structure is also, like a map , inside the heads of the people who daily get out of bed and collectively recreate that structure. They do crazy stuff when the structure starts to pull itself apart under its own internal stresses and strains. - A soldier decapitates the heads from his former neighbors, lines them up on a wall and places lighted cigarettes in their mouths. It's a kind of surreal art, the rest of his unit think its funny but silently know it's cosmically wrong,but there's nothing they can do about stuff like this, it happens, it's the darker place of human consciousness, like a massive, interesting room of the soul you stumble into you didn't know was there, and you feel so real in this place, and the man who does this stuff and his unit haven't a clue how they got from sharing a housing estate with people who looked like this, and two years ago he was smiling at their kids, stopping cars to let their old people over the road, people who looked just like this, only two years ago , to machine gunning them in woods and burying them in a mass grave.

If you apply the belief you can change , rewrite these little rules, that lead to insane conflicts, the" memetic "DNA that acts like the operating system to you sentience awareness and consciousness,then stuff happens at a massive theoretical level , you suddenly have free will and you are not simply a product of forces generating consciousness as a random side effect of some big expanding universe occurrence. You have stumbled into another big interesting room, you didn't know as there, and instead of people getting killed because of your actions, you do stuff calculated to do no harm.

This is why I suggested hacking out the NT's , memes are powerful carriers of retroviral instructions. Like DNA probably 90% of the memetic stuff that is out there, and in our heads is just line afterline of nonsense that evolution's rather messily left scattered around because it never tidies up after itself properly.

Last edited by memesplice on 17 Mar 2010, 3:02 am, edited 5 times in total.

Who inherits the earth?

There is no such thing as more evolutionary advanced. Organism's adapt to change or face extinction.
Aspie's could become their own species given enough time around 500,000 years.