American Children Tortured

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60 Volts...?

Don't talk Volts talk Amps!

And sorry about the Jesus stuff LOL, nope not a Bible geek, you're right. Kind of forgot I was in a place where details get scrutinized.

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y5A_RxfdZzs[/youtube]

they shock kids with severely autistic, mentally ret*d, schizophrenic, biplolar, emotionally disturbed . so remember it is not only Autistic kids and if Autistic kids was not also the ones being shock would this story still piss you off you guys don't have a biased right.

Brainwashing Children, Child Mind Control, School of Shock
another thread school of schok

In fact, that only makes it worse. That means there's an even larger population for them to shock, and anyway, it sounds like an even worse idea to try this on schizophrenics.

That something needs to be done does not mean this needs to be done. Suppose you were bleeding to death. Obviously, something would need to be done. Bloodletting, however, would not fix your problems, and should be avoided, even though-- perhaps even because-- the situation is so desperate.

I don't think the comparison with Christ is a particularly bad one, actually, and I question why you're so offended. Obviously, I'm not going to pray to them, but I worry that the reason you're so offended is because you view these people as subhuman.

All pain can be compared to Christ's, anyway, this being rather the point. If it couldn't, his sacrifice wouldn't be enough. Please recognize that you are talking about human beings made in God's image, and please recognize that you are condoning intentionally causing harm.

This "therapy" cannot teach anything useful, such as coping skills, how to balance a checkbook, etc. The only thing it can do is make these people more manageable. Are you seriously condoning giving up and making managability your goal for these people?

I don't see you offering to take in some African child suffering from AIDS, so does that mean you're not allowed to say the situation there is bad? (My apologies if that's exactly what you've done. If that's the case, you're a very good person.)

No, I'm talking to n4mwd.

So where did you see they use the device to control schizophrenics?

At the forefront of medical science eh? Leaders of the Free World.. God help us...

Actually one of the people this doc practiced on was a schizo, I doubt schizos are excluded in this school.

I really wonder how people with mental retardation even deal with this, like can they even figure out WHY they are shocked? Or does it seem random to them? If their main issue is they cannot do something, say you want them to learn maths and they just sit around and eat their pencils, will a shock make them learn? Really?

Well, using such a device to treat schizophrenia would indeed be inappropriate. However, there is no such thing as a child with schizophrenia because the illness lays dormant until the person reaches young adulthood. So saying he used it on a kid with schizophrenia doesn't make any sense at all.

But think about the profoundly mentally ret*d who can't understand what the word NO means. The vest makes it possible for them to understand empathy in that when they pull the hair of one of their classmates they will also feel pain. So now when they mindlessly attack someone, it will hurt them as much as it does the victim.

So now instead of a perpetual zombie drugged state, the kids learn self control once and then retain it for life.

Um. No?

Do you not realize that this is likely to cause more problems than it solves?

And if the person in question is so ret*d that their mental welfare doesn't really matter anymore, then there's no longer an argument for not keeping them drugged up. (Or for keeping them alive.) Of course, it's possible they are intelligent, and can't communicate it...

Oh, and now that you point that out, yes, my post was partly in response to Monique; the part about schizophrenia was in response to her saying they use it on schizophrenics and wondering whether we would be as offended about that. The rest was in response to n4mwd.

And there is such a thing as a child with schizophrenia, it's just exceptionally rare. There's a girl named January, Jani for short, with (apparently) congenital schizophrenia. Pamela Spiro had symptoms by sixth grade, but made it through college before being diagnosed; I don't know what the maximum age is for the JRC.

There is just no sense in saying that we should hurt ret*ds because it will teach them empathy. It won't. Not if they can't figure out why they're being shocked (and if they're incapable of learning the word "no," a word babies can grasp, a word that animals can grasp, then I suspect they would have to be).

And anyway, does that make it okay to hurt them? Work out enough qualifiers (and at this point, by the way, you've disqualified at least some of the children at the JRC, probably most) and you destroy the argument against drugs.

EDITT: And one other thing. You say they learn it once and retain it for life. This is incorrect. This being classical conditioning (I think), the lesson in question is vulnerable to something called extinction. Extinction is essentially unlearning the lesson because whatever made you learn it goes away-- in this case, the cessation of the shocks could lead to a return of the same behavior, probably worse because the person will then be traumatized as well.

As far as how painful 60 volts is, its roughly equivalent to being snapped by a rubber band. If anything, I am amazed that such a low voltage has any effect on these kids at all.

Behavior modification vests are only effective if they are used on the profoundly ret*d to associate pain with bad behavior. Kids like that have no clue that their behavior is wrong. You can't use the vest as a post punishment, it wont work like that. It has to be used while the kid is in the act of doing something violent - such as pulling hair, etc. The goal is to create a near reflex response such as 'touch fire - experience pain'.

I also found it interesting in that they were also having success using the vest to stop self mutilation as well. You would think the self mutilation would hurt enough. I know a lot of aspies and LFA's as well have done self mutilation. I never did myself. I don't understand the drive.

The bottom line is that parents put their kids in these places for treatment. They aren't snatched off the street as some here have implied. These parents want to avoid zombie drugs like haldol and such. No one loves these kids more than their own parents. Who has the right to challenge that?