What do you think of the Autism Rights Movement?

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I think your response should be addressed point by point.
"Any relationship between people should be based on mutual compromise."

Agreed, but neurotypical people have bent over backwards to cater to autism. The autistic brain is inherently antithetical to compromise. It's like ISIS but without the killing and the religious fanaticism. It keeps on demanding and demanding and can't tolerate any little thing deviating from what it wants. That's essentially one thing that autism does to people. It's autistic people who need to learn to be more compromising, not neurotypical people.

"For the most part autistic behaviors are considered wrong and autistics are expected to be as normal as possible."
Being normal is how to succeed in society. Autistic people have the capability to overcome their hurdles and become normal. But this intense coddling of them is preventing that from happening and thusly is preventing them from succeeding.

"This approach has failed for the most part in that it has lead to mental illness."
No, this coddling of autistic people has failed for the most part and sustained mental illness. Like with cancer, would you force a cancer patient to die rather than let him live by curing him cause it makes him "normal?" Of course not. Autism doesn't lead to physical death. But it does do a lot of damage to its sufferers and society.

"There are some things realted to autism that are impairing, seizures kill autistics, eye contact is a value judgement."
So autistic people, in your mind, are so weak that getting them to be normal, which is the path to success, leads to seizures, which kills them? Is that what you're saying? And no, eye contact is a basic value of civilization. It's how people know you're listening. Societies have rules. Learn them and live by them instead of whining and demanding everything from society and then saying how "any relationship between people should be based on mutual compromise" while expecting society to do all the compromising. Can you not see your hypocrisy here?

"In East Asia and Nigeria not making eye contact is considered respectful."
Ok, well in that case pack your bags and go live in one of those places. And again, if anyone is being condescending to autistic people, it's you. You think they're too weak to learn eye contact and, if they do, then seizures would kill them. How pathetic. It's because of people like you that I absolutely hate the autistic rights movement. You confirm what I say about autism, that it's a disease that's antithetical to flexibility and compromise.

I could not disagree more that ND people have bent over backwards to help autistics it is the other way around or if it has happened I completly missed out on it as well as the coddling. What I do know is when I had a mild stroke suddenly people were bieng real nice to me, opening doors for me etc. Never had anything like that for my autistic issues. You mentioned cancer which I am dealing with now, People are bending over backwords for me accommodating my cancer symptoms. Nothing, nada, zero for my autistic ones. When they help me with cancer or stroke symptoms it is bieng humane, doing similar for autistics is coddling?

Most of the most successful people are not normal, while most of them are not autistic, a lot of them annoy people socially, they are stubborn, a lot of them stay where they are and buck the system instead of running away to place more friendly to them. Fanatism towered the normal leads to societies stagnating then falling.

As for eye contact if it is so naturally basic to human communication does that mean all those people in East Asia and Africa are defective somehow?. Eye contact norms seems more like a cultural thing then a basic human need.

Some autistics like some some cancer patients (sorry with the cancer references but it is on my mind now) are to severe/weak to be normal, some can be fully functiional, many can hold up the facade of bieng normal for a period of time even a long period of time before collapsing. With cancer bieng normal involves overcoming physical symptoms, bieng normal as an autistic mean bieng somebody you are not nearly all the time. In long term if the person can do that they will often burnout or develop mental illness. This is not something limited to autistics, most people are social which is the reason prisons have isolation cells to break prisoners mentally.

As for the siezures mentioned that came from a just published study concluding that the mean life expectency for autistics with learning disabilities is 30 years less then NT's with the leading cause of death is epilepsy (for autistics without learning disabilities it is 16 years less with leading cause of death suicide). The study found that autistics have a number of health problems at a greater rate then the general population Obvoiusly too early to know what the linkage if any there is.

This is something that I don't understand about NT's sometimes. They show compassion to people who are physically disabled or terminally ill but often they don't show compassion for people who are autistic (not all but a lot don't). And then some of them complain that we're the one's without empathy.

Let me address each point by point again.

"I could not disagree more that ND people have bent over backwards to help autistics it is the other way around or if it has happened I completly missed out on it as well as the coddling."
I didn't say that NT people bend over backwards to help autistic people. I said that NT people bend over backward to cater to the autism. Those are two very different claims. Helping autistic people would be helping them integrate, not sustaining their disability. And yes, autistic people are coddled. The sensory movie theaters is but one example. The concept of autism acceptance month [that is acceptance of a mental illness] is another.

"What I do know is when I had a mild stroke suddenly people were bieng real nice to me, opening doors for me etc. Never had anything like that for my autistic issues."
Here you go again assuming autistic people are weak again. I have autism [and am currently fighting it]. Let me be very very very clear. Unless I have a stroke, I don't want people to treat me as if I do have a stroke. What you want is special treatment.

"You mentioned cancer which I am dealing with now, People are bending over backwords for me accommodating my cancer symptoms. Nothing, nada, zero for my autistic ones."
I know I brought up that example. But please, cancer is an actual sickness in the body. And the point is that people don't cater to the cancer. They try to rid the individual of the disease. What you want is people to cater to the disease and treat autistic people as if they're weak. Big big difference.

"When they help me with cancer or stroke symptoms it is bieng humane, doing similar for autistics is coddling?"
Yes, because autism is not a physical symptom. It's coddling because it's catering to the autistic mind, which is as rigid as can be. That's very different than helping someone out because of any physical condition they have.

"Most of the most successful people are not normal, while most of them are not autistic, a lot of them annoy people socially, they are stubborn, a lot of them stay where they are and buck the system instead of running away to place more friendly to them. Fanatism towered the normal leads to societies stagnating then falling."
Yes, people are different, but still not a valid argument for integrating into society instead of demanding special treatment.

"As for eye contact if it is so naturally basic to human communication does that mean all those people in East Asia and Africa are defective somehow?. Eye contact norms seems more like a cultural thing then a basic human need."
Even if eye contact is a cultural thing, if you live in a society where eye contact is the cultural norm, learn it. If you don't like it, then move to East Asia and Africa where you say that having no eye contact is seen as respectable. In the US, eye contact is the norm. It isn't going to change anytime soon. Deal with it.

"Some autistics like some some cancer patients (sorry with the cancer references but it is on my mind now) are to severe/weak to be normal, some can be fully functiional, many can hold up the facade of bieng normal for a period of time even a long period of time before collapsing."
It's funny how you will go from what you say about some autistic people and say that therefore, autistic people can't be normal. Thanks for admitting that you see autistic people as weak by the way. What you say next is even more telling.

"In long term if the person can do that they will often burnout or develop mental illness. This is not something limited to autistics, most people are social which is the reason prisons have isolation cells to break prisoners mentally."
It's not limited to autistic people, but autistic people are somehow too weak to become normal? Is that what you're saying? What will make you happy? Seriously?

"As for the siezures mentioned that came from a just published study concluding that the mean life expectency for autistics with learning disabilities is 30 years less then NT's with the leading cause of death is epilepsy (for autistics without learning disabilities it is 16 years less with leading cause of death suicide). The study found that autistics have a number of health problems at a greater rate then the general population Obvoiusly too early to know what the linkage if any there is."
One, correlation does not prove causation. Two, you admit that we don't know what the linkage is. Type up the link or else I'll see your "study" as dubious. Anyway, your post is saying: Autistic people are too weak to become neurotypical people. Autistic people are too weak to learn eye contact. Autistic people are too weak to go through the normal human experience of not getting their way all the time. Face it, life is difficult. Crap is going to happen to you, as it does to everyone. Like I said, you're the condescending one, not me. You're part of the problem, not the solution.

It sounds like you have a very low opinion of autistic people and what their difference could potentially add to society, and a very high opinion of "normalcy" and conformity. If you think so little of autistic people, perhaps a forum full of such people is not the place for you. Otherwise, perhaps try to find a more positive way to contribute to conversation here than just putting autistic people down. Just because we face challenges in the neurotypical world that does not mean that we must either learn to completely conform to neurotypical life or obliterate ourselves. There is room (and necessity) for variation in the human experience, and while it's important to keep growing and learning as a person, I personally will always be learning and growing from an autistic perspective and with an autistic brain--and I'm OK with that. Perhaps you need to find a way to become OK with yourself and your autism so you are not so harshly judgmental of others who are trying to find their place in the world.

I'm inclined to take a neutral perspective in this rights vs cure debate, though I am against the idea of removing autism outright (treating its symptoms is fine, but total removal just opens doors to things like designer babies or forced conformity). In the end, both sides of the arguments are extremes that don't really fully take into account the truth about autism.

The whole "autism is not a disorder" point I am also against. Some might find negative connotations in the word "disorder", but it effectively means difference from the norm in a way that produces disadvantages - and that pretty much sums up autism. Even if it does have upsides, it still has downsides, especially in more extreme cases. Does this mean it should be treated as a disability? That depends on how severely it effect's someone's life. I wouldn't say I'm personally disabled by autism, but it does make things harder and has resulted in anxiety that one might well describe as disabling in of itself.

The coping skills vs imitating argument is something I agree with though. I am a firm hater of conformity. As long as it hurts nobody, we should be able to live as we want. Public nudity shouldn't be wrong, there should be no problems with cross-dressing and there's no reason why eye contact can't be optional. There are so many taboos and unwritten rules made up by society that have no logical grounds and are just there because they're there. Take swear words for example. They're just words, yet they're somehow bad? Why? Because they are. And that's stupid. So no, we shouldn't have to be forced to be like everyone else.

At the end of the day, the rights movement and cure movement both seem to be set up by parties who don't see the big picture.

And for those who want to know what I think about having ASD, well I'm at peace with it. It doesn't define me, but it's part of who I am, for better or for worse. I'm not proud of being autistic, but I'm proud of being me - an individual; and autism is a part of that (unless someone turns around and says "lol actually, asperger's is not autism, we were wrong", but I'm sure you get my point). My life hasn't been great, but that doesn't matter. I'm happy with myself as a person.

Do I believe people with more life-altering autism are being misrepresented in this debate? Yes. By both sides. Autism Speaks claims to "speak" for those with crippling autism, but at the end of the day, it's only their families and the people who work for Autism Speaks who are doing the talking. But on the other side of the coin, the Autism Rights Movement just ignores the issues of the worse-effected outright.

My verdict: don't cure autism, cure the worst symptoms of it. Let people retain their perspectives and individuality. If that's not viable, then limit the cure only to those with severe enough symptoms that they can't overcome it - things like curing at birth or even pre-birth I do not agree with.

I'm the one with the low opinion? I'm not the one who says that autistic people are too weak to learn eye contact or that they are too weak to adapt to society. I'm not the one who says that seizures would kill them if they do learn those traits [unlike Aspartofme, who said all that stuff]. I said that autistic people are capable of learning to adapt. I support any program that helps them adapt and that, like everyone else, helps them become self sufficient. Yes, ABA helped me a lot. And ABA is something that the autistic "rights" movement seeks to get rid of, thusly preventing autistic people from functioning in society. It seems to me that people like you can't distinguish between not liking the autistic "rights" movement and not liking autistic people generally. You think that if autistic people don't think like you, then they must have a low opinion of autistic people. It's not that I have a low opinion of autistic people. I have a low opinion of people like you. I have a low opinion of the mentality that people like you hold, which I think holds autistic people back. Cause as I said, I don't see autistic people as too weak to overcome their autism, unlike some people on this forum.

One more reply to Willburnforce that I'll quickly type as another post. If I had cancer, I would not hate other people who had cancer. But I'll hate the cancer that's killing me. If I have a head ache, I won't hate other people with the head ache. But I'll hate the head ache that's afflicting me. If the autism holds me back, I won't hate other people struggling with the same problems. I'd hate the autism that's holding me back. It's really that simple. And I'd hate anyone who pushes those afflictions on me in the name of "caring" for me as well. It really is that simple, as I said.

Well I'm not sure where you are getting this impression from, because I don't think I have seen anyone here saying that autistic people are too weak to learn eye contact. "Weakness" is not the issue. Eye contact is extremely uncomfortable for me--this is not because I'm am weak, or that if I were to force myself to make eye contact despite my discomfort that would somehow make me "stronger"--what forcing eye contact does is exhaust and confuse me and confound information exchange (which is usually the point of conversing with someone). The reason eye contact makes me so uncomfortable is that what is going on in people's eyes when they talk often has little to do with what they are saying because most NTs don't say exactly what they are thinking and feeling frankly like autistic people tend to do (I lack a filter in this way and am embarrassing frank as a result), so if I focus on their eyes when they talk to me I will get confused and lose track of what they are saying and will end up having to ask them to repeat themselves (which people find annoying if you do it a lot) or to just miss out on chunks of conversation. I'm not sure how you are seeing my acceptance of the fact that I make less eye contact than NTs and not forcing myself to do otherwise as "weakness". It's just a difference in behaviour because of the difference in wiring in my brain--and if other people can't accept that I make less eye contact than NTs that is their problem, not mine. I am happy with the amount of eye contact that I can manage with people I am close to and care about--that's all that matters to me. I don't care how I measure up to "normal" people in regards to the amount of eye contact I make. I don't think this is a weakness.

You make a lot of good points, and I think I am also rather neutral in regards to this topic for many of the same reasons.

For other parts of your post, I can understand some of your points. I'm not saying to blindly accept popular opinions [I'd be very far from doing that]. But let me respond to some telling aspects of your post that I vehemently disagree with. First off, public nudity is unnatural. Men and women who are complete strangers from each other seeing each other's nakedness is immoral and, in my view, goes against G-d's will. Eye contact is a way of letting people know you're listening and talking to them. There is no way that eye contact will go away, at least not in the Western World. It doesn't hurt to just learn the cultural norms of the society you live and adapt. If you don't like it, then go somewhere else. It really is that simple. And cross dressing is also unnatural. I'm not saying to condemn the people who do it [I do think we should have compassion on them]. But don't mainstream it as ok. Whether you like it or not, society will have rules including those that don't "make sense." You're going to have to learn to live with them because they will not go away, period. With swear words, people have already put a lot of power in them. Words have meanings. For instance, some who support the autism "rights" movement got offended cause I don't like being coddled. Why can they get offended, but neurotypical people can't? The idea that autistic people are somehow more "objective" than neurotypical people is just not true. Autistic people are perfectly capable of forming their own biases [I know from personal experience, since on certain issues, I have strong biases]. Swear words, since they carry the connotations that they carry, are inappropriate in certain environments. Deal with it. You'll never prevent a society from making rules that don't make sense. Trying to do with is debilitating, period. That's what I got to say.

Just going to point out that everything I listed on that paragraph are examples of things people are expected to do but hold no (logically, putting aside beliefs and social etiquette) moral or meaningful ground (nor are directly linked to autism). Whether you agree with them or not is not my point - my point is that I am firmly against the idea of being forced to imitate social behaviours when it's perfectly viable to simply cope with them and find mutually beneficial work-arounds.

I could argue into detail why I believe those certain things I listed are silly (and as an agnostic nudist believing firmly in science and logic, I have many many arguments I can make against what you've said), but that's not the point of the thread, nor the point I'm trying to make.

If you read what was said in the exchange between Aspartofme and me, that was basically what Aspartofme said. He basically said that eye contact or learning anything else to be able to adapt to society will cause autistic people to get seizures, which will kill them. That's what aspartofme said. And it is an issue of weakness. I know from firsthand experience that autistic people are capable of learning eye contact [and of overcoming their autism in other ways]. As I said, society has rules. Deal with it. Eye contact is one of the social norms that people need to learn. To deny an autistic person the ability to learn eye contact is cruel, in my view. Face it. Autism is a burden. It demands, demands, demands, and is never satisfied. That's the bottom line. There comes a time when you got to say to the autistic brain, "No." That's a first step to overcoming the problem.

Leaving aside the fact that science and logic does not disprove G-d's existence, I can say that there are moral arguments against both public nudity and cross dressing. Both are unnatural, period. Boys in dresses look weird [to put it mildly]. Sorry. It's cruel to mainstream the symptoms. As for science, it's a biological fact [I'll stick to science and not to religion], that men and women have different bodies. For instance, men can not get pregnant. It's unnatural for men and women who don't know each other to see each other naked. In my view, it's immoral. I can understand having a nudity beach somewhere [certainly a place I would NEVER EVER EVER go to]. But for society to accept public nudity, in my view, goes way too far. Why should people who are rightly uncomfortable seeing a stranger's private parts [particularly if the stranger is from the opposite sex] be forced to look at them? Why!? The point is that the things you listed are not silly. And my point also is that, for any society to function, it has rules. Some of those rules don't make "logical" sense. That's leaving aside my view that not all morals and ethics can be reduced to logic puzzles. Science is an aspect of learning about the world. And a very important one at that. But there are other aspects as well. I think it's good to learn the rules of the society you live in instead of always demanding that there be a "logical" reason behind every rule. That's my broader point.

I appreciate you have a difference of opinion, but this has gone beyond the scope of the thread. Once again, I'm not going to argue, because I don't want to get into an argument about these things when they're not the point of the thread. Let's just agree to disagree and leave it at that and move on.

Ok. Fair enough.