Incel Mass shooter in UK identified as autistic

Page 2 of 6 [ 96 posts ] Go to page Previous 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6 Next

Previous topic | Next topic

IsabellaLinton
Veteran
Veteran

Joined: 1 Nov 2017
Gender: Female
Posts: 72,433
Location: Chez Quis

13 Aug 2021, 8:53 pm

funeralxempire wrote:

Where did I suggest anything resembling all autistic people are Incel killers?
I didn't.

That doesn't mean that autism isn't likely relevant to understanding what motivates incel killers. Understanding what motivates these types of incidents involves examining factors that contribute and it seems counter-productive to dismiss one of the more widely documented traits.

I know you didn't say that all autistic people are Incel killers. Sorry if you thought that's what I meant.

I meant: when people highlight, discuss, or promote the fact that "all Incel killers are autistic", society gets the wrong message. Society starts to think all autistic people are killers, or capable of committing hate crimes. They commit the logical fallacy, and this illogical deduction becomes a subconscious sociological belief.

If all spree killers including Incels, school shooters, cinema shooters, grocery store shooters, école shooters, and Yonge Street van attackers are autistic, it's still just one piece of their psychology. The comorbids of criminal insanity or mental illness, along with gender socialisation, glorified violence, intellect, and basic assholery need to be considered as well.

_________________
I never give you my number, I only give you my situation.
Beatles

ASPartOfMe
Veteran
Veteran

Joined: 25 Aug 2013
Age: 67
Gender: Male
Posts: 38,088
Location: Long Island, New York

13 Aug 2021, 8:58 pm

Too many have been identified as autistic for comfort.

_________________
Professionally Identified and joined WP August 26, 2013
DSM 5: Autism Spectrum Disorder, DSM IV: Aspergers Moderate Severity.

“My autism is not a superpower. It also isn’t some kind of god-forsaken, endless fountain of suffering inflicted on my family. It’s just part of who I am as a person”. - Sara Luterman

funeralxempire
Veteran
Veteran

Joined: 27 Oct 2014
Age: 40
Gender: Non-binary
Posts: 33,541
Location: Right over your left shoulder

13 Aug 2021, 9:00 pm

IsabellaLinton wrote:

I thought that Incel lunatics target women, as a way of taking out their anger for not getting laid.

This man doesn't even seem to fit that pattern.

He killed his mother (I'm assuming he didn't want to sleep with her), a baby (ditto -- despite her gender), two men, and a 66 year old woman. This sounds more like insanity to me, than a targeted crime against women or an act of sexual frustration.

I know he posted an Incel video and talked about being a virgin. I don't give a rat's arse about that. He knew his video would circulate on mass media whichever way he chose to claim victimhood. He could have talked about being a Trump supporter, or a gun rights advocate, or a someone who was fed up with Brexit. Claiming Incel or loneliness as an excuse for his behaviour is just a scapegoat.

No one should correlate autism as a causative factor.

If a member on our board committed an egregious crime and said it was because of his / her autism, we would all defend ourselves, saying we aren't like that.

I don't know why people allow it from the media.

These incidents should elicit protest from the autistic community, and autism agencies worldwide.

If most of these killers are autistic understanding what role if any autism plays in the long-run will be beneficial for people with ASD because either the idea will end up debunked or with better understanding we'll be better equipped to get people help before they're so far down a pit of misery that they can't conceive of any way out.

I don't imagine autism on it's own would be a motive; but that doesn't mean that autistic traits in combination with other issues can't be a contributing factor.

You've seen enough people on this board to know some folks with ASD are very prone to ruminating on their failures or on other sources of rage. That trait seems likely to be relevant as a contributing factor and might help explain why many people participate in those toxic communities but only a select few act out and why autism is so over-represented within that cohort.

It doesn't mean all folks with ASD might act out violently.
It doesn't mean the killer bears any less responsibility for their actions.

At most it means that providing better support for dealing with mental health issues within men with ASD is needed before anyone ends up down that well of despair that convinces them mass murder is the only way to express their suffering.

Getting those folks help will reduce the number of incidents and ultimately reduce the stigma, but we've got to get those guys effective help in order to achieve that.

_________________
The Party told you to reject the evidence of your eyes and ears. It was their final, most essential command.
If you're not careful, the newspapers will have you hating the people who are being oppressed, and loving the people who are doing the oppressing. —Malcolm X
Just a reminder: under international law, an occupying power has no right of self-defense, and those who are occupied have the right and duty to liberate themselves by any means possible.

IsabellaLinton
Veteran
Veteran

Joined: 1 Nov 2017
Gender: Female
Posts: 72,433
Location: Chez Quis

13 Aug 2021, 9:07 pm

ASPartOfMe wrote:

Too many have been identified as autistic for comfort.

I agree. I'm uncomfortable because their crimes are being pegged on autism, rather than their depravity.

Media: "The killer was autistic. He was lonely and couldn't get laid."
World: "Oh, OK. That explains everything".

Media: "The killer was autistic. He had no friends".
World: "Autism ... again? What the hell's with those people?"

Non-Violent autistic people worldwide: Ignored.

Cycle repeats.

If the courts really think autism is responsible, when will governments enact legislation to sponsor mental health support services for autistic people, or those at risk because of political extremism?

Will they ever do anything preventative?

_________________
I never give you my number, I only give you my situation.
Beatles

IsabellaLinton
Veteran
Veteran

Joined: 1 Nov 2017
Gender: Female
Posts: 72,433
Location: Chez Quis

13 Aug 2021, 9:11 pm

funeralxempire wrote:

At most it means that providing better support for dealing with mental health issues within men with ASD is needed before anyone ends up down that well of despair that convinces them mass murder is the only way to express their suffering.

Getting those folks help will reduce the number of incidents and ultimately reduce the stigma, but we've got to get those guys effective help in order to achieve that.

Exactly. Thank you. I guess what I'm ranting about is irresponsible journalism, and its risk for us all. Autistic people are already being exposed to shock therapy and inhumane treatment, or being triaged last if they contract Covid. Public opinion of autism is getting worse with this incessant news coverage about killers, and with photos of blank-faced men with dead eyes who are reported to be on the spectrum.

I think we all deserve better than that.

_________________
I never give you my number, I only give you my situation.
Beatles

Fnord
Veteran
Veteran

Joined: 6 May 2008
Gender: Male
Posts: 60,939
Location:

13 Aug 2021, 9:18 pm

Although not a new movement, Involuntary Celibates (Incels) are an emerging domestic terrorism threat as current adherents demonstrate marked acts or threats of violence in furtherance of their social grievance.

Once viewed as a criminal threat by many law enforcement authorities, Incels are now seen as a growing domestic terrorism concern due to the ideological nature of recent Incel attacks internationally, nationwide, and in Texas. What begins as a personal grievance due to perceived rejection by women may morph into allegiance to, and attempts to further, an Incel Rebellion. The result has thrust the Incel movement into the realm of domestic terrorism.

The violence demonstrated by Incels in the past decade, coupled with extremely violent online rhetoric, suggests this particular threat could soon match, or potentially eclipse, the level of lethalness demonstrated by other domestic terrorism types.

Source: This Unclassifed Texas Domestic Terrorism Threat Assessment PDF, January 2020

funeralxempire
Veteran
Veteran

Joined: 27 Oct 2014
Age: 40
Gender: Non-binary
Posts: 33,541
Location: Right over your left shoulder

13 Aug 2021, 9:25 pm

IsabellaLinton wrote:

funeralxempire wrote:

I think overall you and I have similar concerns but weigh them differently, but also want similar results.

The irresponsible journalism around this issue is a problem, no doubt. That seems to be the general trend with journalism these days so I feel like it might be a distraction from focusing on the mental health aspect because I feel like more effort at the source of the problem makes more sense than focusing too much on how it's covered, but I agree with you that the way the issue is reported isn't very helpful.

Smother the fire vs take away it's fuel, either way we both agree the fire needs put out.

IsabellaLinton
Veteran
Veteran

Joined: 1 Nov 2017
Gender: Female
Posts: 72,433
Location: Chez Quis

13 Aug 2021, 9:27 pm

Fnord wrote:

So, what are they planning to do about this?

What solutions or interventions are being proposed, other than making autistic people sound psychotic?

This is a systemic issue. The problem should be addressed in collaboration with economics, skills development and job creation, science and genetics, media violence, weapons manufacturing, gender education, sex education, public policy, justice systems, sociology, psychology, psychiatry, social work, disability services, community services, family services, and the owners of platforms like Facebook, where these people see others leave their pathetic manifestos.

_________________
I never give you my number, I only give you my situation.
Beatles

funeralxempire
Veteran
Veteran

Joined: 27 Oct 2014
Age: 40
Gender: Non-binary
Posts: 33,541
Location: Right over your left shoulder

13 Aug 2021, 9:30 pm

IsabellaLinton wrote:

ASPartOfMe wrote:

Too many have been identified as autistic for comfort.

Folks with ASD have pretty high rates of co-morbid mental illness, but as a society we don't do much when it comes to providing mental heath care on the level we do for physical health care. Most people could probably benefit from having access to those services at some point in their lives and some people are inherently predisposed to needing more support than others. None of that should be stigmatized and we as a society still have quite a ways to go.

On another tangent, I wonder if that sorta reporting makes the guys vulnerable to that path even more hopeless and adds a degree of self-fulfilling prophecy to the mixture.

kraftiekortie
Veteran
Veteran

Joined: 4 Feb 2014
Gender: Male
Posts: 87,510
Location: Queens, NYC

13 Aug 2021, 9:33 pm

Autism didn’t cause this guy to murder.

It was something else….probably some sort of psychopathy.

funeralxempire
Veteran
Veteran

Joined: 27 Oct 2014
Age: 40
Gender: Non-binary
Posts: 33,541
Location: Right over your left shoulder

13 Aug 2021, 9:39 pm

kraftiekortie wrote:

Autism didn’t cause this guy to murder.

It was something else….probably some sort of psychopathy.

But what if he doesn't meet that diagnostic criteria?

I think people are choosing to overlook that there's a small (but significant) number of young men who go online and slowly get absorbed into communities that unite around a shared special interest; how they're miserable, doomed to romantic failure and it's all everyone else's fault.

No, autism alone isn't making these guys act this way, but the tendency to ruminate on their own failures to the point they're unable to consider more healthy approaches and the echo chambers where they go to discuss their experiences can't be ignored.

No single factor leads to this outcome, but we'd do ourselves a disservice to ignore what appears to be a pretty consistent element. And since it is an element it's better that proposals for how to address it start coming from within because otherwise they'll be imposed by people who don't have sympathy for the ASD community.

IsabellaLinton
Veteran
Veteran

Joined: 1 Nov 2017
Gender: Female
Posts: 72,433
Location: Chez Quis

13 Aug 2021, 9:55 pm

funeralxempire wrote:

On another tangent, I wonder if that sorta reporting makes the guys vulnerable to that path even more hopeless and adds a degree of self-fulfilling prophecy to the mixture.

Of course it does. The media teaches society that autistic men are psycho. As a result, some autistic men don't get dates. As a result, autistic men get upset at society. As a result, they sometimes snap. As a result, the media reports that they were autistic. As a result, this reinforces everyone's fear.

Rinse and repeat.

When will mass media educate people about the other 99.9999% of autistic people who don't become psychopaths? What about all the good men here on WP? Will they ever get their 15 minutes of fame on television, showing what great and peaceful people they are? Will reporters ever be social justice warriors for autism rights, by helping to advertise counsellors and services for autistic adults (beyond ABA or shock therapy?) Will they ever run a segment about relationship skills or dating tips for people on the spectrum? I've never seen that in the news, except for one-minute feel-good stories about virtue signallers who self-promote by saying they raised money for disabled people.

_________________
I never give you my number, I only give you my situation.
Beatles

funeralxempire
Veteran
Veteran

Joined: 27 Oct 2014
Age: 40
Gender: Non-binary
Posts: 33,541
Location: Right over your left shoulder

13 Aug 2021, 10:05 pm

They never report on all the dogs that don't bite either and for essentially the same reason. Normalcy isn't news.

kraftiekortie
Veteran
Veteran

Joined: 4 Feb 2014
Gender: Male
Posts: 87,510
Location: Queens, NYC

13 Aug 2021, 10:05 pm

The emphasis, in this case, is on the “Incel” aspect of things. Much much more than on the “autistic” aspect of things.

The guy fell into the rabbit hole of the Incel ideology at a very young age.

IsabellaLinton
Veteran
Veteran

Joined: 1 Nov 2017
Gender: Female
Posts: 72,433
Location: Chez Quis

13 Aug 2021, 10:07 pm

funeralxempire wrote:

kraftiekortie wrote:

Autism didn’t cause this guy to murder.

It was something else….probably some sort of psychopathy.

As an autistic woman I've seen plenty of rhetoric that autistic men (or men in general) are bad. I don't fall for that shite, but some women drink the kool-aid and "get absorbed into communities" based on misandry and sexism. Are they called Femcels? (I'm not sure of the term but I've heard some seriously deranged extremists). I don't see the women going about killing people or committing hate crimes as a result. That's not to say that women can't be psychopaths. I just think that autistic men are really poorly understood, and it becomes a vicious cycle like you said earlier. The more they're vilified, the more alienated or disenfranchised autistic men will feel.

There are probably sympathisers out there right now, seeing that this man was autistic and identifying with his lack of dating success. Every time the media calls him "autistic", "lonely", or "a virgin", we stand the risk it will serve as a confirmation bias for people to commit copycat crimes. Very few people would identify with the perpetrator if the media said "He seemed to be insane. No healthy person would commit a crime like this. Now, let's talk about the victims instead of this POS killer".

I'd like to hear that more.

_________________
I never give you my number, I only give you my situation.
Beatles

kraftiekortie
Veteran
Veteran

Joined: 4 Feb 2014
Gender: Male
Posts: 87,510
Location: Queens, NYC

13 Aug 2021, 10:10 pm

Yep….that would make more sense.

Page 2 of 6 [ 96 posts ] Go to page Previous 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6 Next

Jump to:

Incel Mass shooter in UK identified as autistic Post Reply New Topic

Incel Mass shooter in UK identified as autistic