Stop Bashing Autism Speaks!

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Probably the most concise and intelligent thing said in this thread. I suspect all this is a co-opting attempt to solicit us as additional propaganda tools to exploit, and they don't genuinely mean for any change.

Paranoid.

My comment about the misquote was just meant to be a light hearted comment, I was bringing it to your attention again as I do in this post. Patiently I might add. . Dry humor both in this case and that case.

Temple Grandhin didn't say anything about layered communication in her statement I quoted. She talks about an upper layer of abstract verbal thinking merged with emotion common in non-autistics.

Intelligence tests measure abstract verbal reasoning and visual spatial thinking. In her case she excels in visual spatial thinking. Not all autistic people are visual thinkers, and I doubt that they would all have this similiar issue.

I didn't state she said anything about figurative language, it is my statement that abstract verbal reasoning is related to figurative language, in the sense that understanding and using figurative language/metaphors is a task of abstract reasoning. More specifically in this case abstract verbal reasoning.

She doesn't talk about verbal communication at all in her paragraph. Abstract Verbal thoughts are not communication, they are produced by abstract verbal thinking/reasoning.

Metaphors and Idioms that express nuance of emotion are examples of figurative language. As per examples provided in my last post.

It seems that you don't agree that understanding and using metaphors/figurative language is a task of abstract reasoning. I don't want you to take my word for it so here is evidence from a third party source that it is a task of abstract reasoning:

http://learningdisabilities.about.com/od/glossar1/g/abstractreason.htm




If there are deficits in emotion based Abstract verbal reasoning/thinking, inference of emotion could be more difficult in this type of figurative language, making it harder to understand the meaning of metaphors or idioms that express nuance of emotion in figurative language.

Abstract verbal thinking/reasoning is a type of Abstract reasoning not a type of figurative language or communication.

Understanding figurative language that expresses emotion is a result of Inference that comes from Abstract verbal reasoning/thinking merged with emotion as in the examples of the inference of metaphors and idioms used to describe the nuance of emotion, that I gave in the last post.

This provides a potential explanation why some autistic people have problems understanding metaphors and idioms, and instead think in a literal/concrete way.

Just to make sure I am clear, abstract verbal thinking is a synomym for abstract verbal reasoning.



This does not suggest that Temple Grandhin lacks the ability for abstract reasoning, there are many different measures of abstract reasoning. Abstract verbal reasoning, is only one area of abstract reasoning that is measured in intelligence tests.

Tests that measure abstract verbal reasoning also measure for comprehension, that the research provided by Wiki suggests autistic individuals share a deficit in along with inference, and figurative language.

The point is per the research it appears these different factors may all be connected in some way. And looking at the big picture it provides a potential for understanding that autistic people may be affected by this from an organic perspective of a difference in the way the emotional centers of the amygdala work in the autistic brain.

Again I'm not suggesting that anything necessarily is the core cause of everything else, they are just potential associations, at this point.

Careful now, an ex-moderator of WP was banned for calling one user paranoid. It constitutes a personal attack according to WP's ToS.

EDIT: Retracted, fair enough that was a personal attack too.

Four pints, two for me and one each for the two new guys.

It is about money, power, and having people spam up threads about bashing or not bashing Autism Speaks with endless drivel about psychobbale and word meaning.

Pro or anti bash on this thread please.

You are off point and out of order.

Please start your own thread for your personal disagreement tactic of disrupting threads, I have seen it used by ASAN, AFF, and now Autism Speaks.

To bash or not to bash, the subject being debated.

Thank you Inventor.

I think that the correct answer is both to bash and not bash. Bash politely and constructively when bashing is deserved, but otherwise lay off.

And please don't complain about something that you won't get off your butt and do something about.

Barkeep, a pint for the kid if you please, he may not act it, but he is old enough.

I may go off topic and bash HP, but they are Vendors, and their stock is down by half. They could have been a contender. A lot of wealth was lost on that Management Team.

Autism Speaks is at least a Non Profit, they may have squandered all donations, less than a Billion I think, HPs Market Cap was hundreds of Billions, now worth half, and declining.

I think both Management Teams lack a vision of their market.

HP sold out their customer base, Autism Speaks wants nothing to do with theirs.

HP was gutted by Management, Intellectual Property was transferred to China to a new company with a Manufacturing Contract for HP products. They got rich, a lot of people here lost their jobs, and their investment in HP. Customers got junk computers and Asian Tech Support.

Autism Speaks is not having Autistics Manufactured offshore, it is still an American product. They have asked Drug Companies what to do, and were told Drugs. They asked Psych, and were told Psych, they asked Genetics, and were told Genetics, Tech, and were told they would have to call China for permission.

It is Propaganda, Public Relations, but mostly for an arm of The People's Liberation Army, who are helping Americans. Next China will want that Round Eye Genetic Data Base, so they can help some more. .

The Chinese are different. For one they process Math in the section of the brain we use for language. Genetically they are a neanderthal denisovan line, but not the same as the European neanderthal line.

The history of Species, is only one variation will survive. We are in a Biological War, have been for millions of years, and 20,000 years ago Erectus who was several million years old ended, Neanderthal who was 700,000 years old ended, and Denisovan, 200,000 years old ended.

Several minor Sapien groups ended, Florensis, several others, Australia, North America, were almost exterminated. China is not blind to history.

China is credited with caving in the Roman Empire. They sold them silk, labor, and would only take gold in payment. In a few hundred years there was no gold left in Rome. Rome could not finance their own economy, so they looted others for gold, which went to China for silk.

All the silk spinners and weavers died, but the gold stayed in China.

Rome went from gold, to silver coin, then bronze, then mostly lead bronze. The Chinese never told them of paper, or the wheel barrow.

A Rome without silk, with tons of gold, would have had a different future.

To the Chinese, it was war with the barbarians, using silk and economics. China won.

The largest Autistic Data Base was funded by The Department of Defense. We are Weapons Grade. We are well known inside and out, The Patent Office. Research, Intelligence Agencies, all like our work ethic, and differance of thought and perception.

From the 50s and 60s we know Autism Research was funded by the CIA. There was an intelligence they could not understand, and wanted to control, for most inventors are serial inventors, and file Patents in many fields.

It fits with Autism Speaks recent and sudden rise, investments by the Department of Defense, and their friends in Washington. It also fits with investigating Autism, but never doing anything that would help the Autistic.

The last thing they want is for us to become aware. Computers were Applied Autism, made more money than Manufacturing. Compare GM to Microsoft.

The Species War goes on here. Labor is becoming obsolete. A few minds produce more than factories used to.

After Katrina, in New Orleans, just from stress, the death rate hit seven times the national rate. Populations under stress decline.

Rome was a mighty Empire, cities all over, a huge population for the time. They vanish in a hundred years.

Government loots the future, Wall Street steals the present, HP sells out to China, but Microsoft is still making money. So is Apple.

Autism seems to be on the surviving side. Everyone wants a piece of us.

They live in fear that one of us will invent something, that will change the economy, and we do. Change is the single largest threat to all government and industry.

There was no reason to Demonize Autism, children with Cancer are not considered evil. They are just as much of a burden on parents.

Why would the Department of Defense want a Genetic Data Base on Autism? Got jobs? We will take them.

Got Autism training in Social and Employment Skills, we will take them.

That is not what we are being offered.

Someone sees the connection between new technology and Autism, and they are in power and will do anything to stay in power.

Autism Speaks is playing Chamber of Commerce to a small town Mayor.

They work together to keep new power bases from forming, in their dying town.

They are trying to control the future, meaning they want to be in control of the future.

We made more money in computers than they did stealing the country from England, the Native Americans, stealing people in Africa, strip mining the land, logging the country, in two hundred years.

They put us in two wars, overbuilt housing, shipped the jobs offshore, ran the Government into massive debt, and caved in the economy just to slow us down.

Autism Speaks is sucking up all funds that would go to developing autistics. Demonizing 30% of the population who produce the Technology, new Patents and Processes, saying they should be Cured, or at least Controlled, is propaganda. We are in a Genetic War, an Economic War, and Autism Speaks is only a Marketing and Media Company, that suddenly rose from nowhere.

A few years back it was Anti Trust against Microsoft, from the States, and Bill told them he had a right to shut down every bootleg copy of Windows they were using to run every level of Government, They backed off.

Something like 27 State Attorney Generals demanded he give them the Source Code for Windows. They were going to put him in jail till he did.

Autism Speaks does not work for us, so who do they work for?

Barkeep, two more for me, and another for the kid, he has some thinking to do.

Yet...

She says layered thinking. I say layered communication. You talk about abstract reasoning. I think we can see this is just inveigling pedantry.


Abstract verbal thinking merged with emotion mean complex ideas merged with emotion. I doubt that abstraction of autistics is negatively affected in any way because if the only reason people do these things because we have a direct route between our emotions and higher thinking I doubt that actually means our higher thinking is Impaired.

It sounds more like a case of Autistics not having their higher thinking not prompted by or modified emotion but by actually using their noggin.

You stated she was talking about communication, I clarified that it was not in her conversation. She talked about an upper layer of thinking/consciousness not anything about layered communication. Layered communication and an upper layer of consciousness/thinking are two completely different things, that you seem to be saying are interchangeable and pedantic when one attempts to differentiate them. They aren't and I was trying to make that clear.

Understanding metaphor/figurative language is a task of abstract reasoning and is part of the ability to think in more complex terms, per the reference I provided.

I provided evidence of it for you because you disagreed that understanding metaphor/figurative langugage was related to abstract reasoning.

Abstract reasoning allows one the ability for higher levels of understanding. The task of understanding and using metaphors is part of a higher level of thinking, that presents difficulties in some people with autism. It doesn't mean they aren't capable of higher levels of thinking in other areas.

I provided evidence to show that the deficits in abstract reseasoning measured in the first evidence from Pitt that I provided is further evidenced by the research provided by Wiki that showed evidence of difficulties in inference, understanding figurative language, and comprehension that are all tasks of abstract reasoning, as also evidenced in the third party source I provided in the last post.

Back on topic, what this has to do with Bashing Autism Speaks, is the difficulties autistic people have in understanding metaphors in relationship to understanding the intended meaning of metaphors used by the marketing team of Autism Speaks, and instead taking offense to them because one takes the literal meaning of them as offensive.

While some have the ability to understand metaphors and would never take it as offensive, some autistic people do as part of their condition, so it is to Autism Speaks benefit to understand that and adjust accordingly, as they have been doing in their marketing campaign to some degree with the last couple of years.

The Hacking Autism discussion is a perfect example of this. Tambourine man didn't see the metaphorical meaning of the phrase as offensive at all on a personal basis, and others in the conversation saw it as personally offensive or disturbing. It all boils down to how one understands the metaphorical meaning of the phrase Hacking Autism, or if one understands it has a metaphorical meaning at all.

There is a continuum where some would not be able to understand the metaphorical meaning of the phrase on their own without clarification from someone else, and for others that would understand it almost immediately.

Just because the metaphor is associated with Autism Speaks doesn't necessarily make it any harder or easier for autistic people in general to understand the metaphorical meaning of the phrase.

We expect autism speaks and/or HP to understand how we are influenced by their metaphorical phrases, but by the same token, I think it is worthwhile to understand why some autistic people are more affected in this understanding than others, because of the inherent difficulties that some autistic people have with understanding metaphorical meanings of phrases and words.

Our extended discussion on it, hopefully, is summarized in this post.

Nope.

I say that what we are talking about is probably a much better match than your attempt to say that your belief of what abstract reasoning is. I think layer of verbal thinking and layered communication better matches. Ho-hum.


No, as I already said. Your example was faulty, because it simply talked about deficits in inference and etcetera when I said quite clearly that these are not abstract reasoning but layered thinking and your belief that they are seems to be based on faith more than reason.

Even if we are to believe in this incorrect idea of abstraction since abstraction, abstract thinking, is the basis of human intelligence, saying that autistics were chosen by IQ to be matched up with non autistics is impossible then because abstraction is the basis of human intelligence. They can't be just as smart and yet dumber, unless of course people are trying to make a huge fuss about their completely irrelevant abilities by calling them abstraction.







It's alot easier to interpret whole upper later of verbal thinking merged with emotions as being similar to if not the same as layered communication than it is to not interpret part-and-parcel as not meaning integral or an unmissable part of.

The evidence I provided that shows that figurative language/metaphor is a task of abstract reasoning is provided here as I provided in the last post. The evidence from Pitt that you are talking about in this post, that showed deficits in abstract reasoning. is a different source of evidence. Both inference and comprehension are required to understand and use metaphors/figurative language:

http://learningdisabilities.about.com/od/glossar1/g/abstractreason.htm



Difficulties in abstract reasoning are a common characteristic of Aspergers that was undersood and established back in 1995. This information is readily available with many reputable information sources that focus on Aspergers:

http://www.iidc.indiana.edu/?pageId=467



While I understand that it is your opinion that difficulties in abstract reasoning aren't part of Autism, can you find any source anywhere that backs up your opinion? You suggest I am basing what I state on faith, where I have presented evidence instead of opinion.

I've provided a great deal of evidence to support that difficulties with abstract reasoning, comprehension, inference, metaphors/figurative language is a common problem in Autism. There are hundreds of other references that support it as well. I can provide more if you like.

Finally, again, IQ tests measure many different types of intelligence. The tasks of reading comprehension, inference of figurative language, which are tasks that measure skills of abstract reasoning are only a small part of what is tested. Many abstract reasoning tests are visual rather than verbal oriented.

Autisitic individuals often excel in visual/spatial tasks and tests that measure rote memory, well beyond their non-autistic peers, at times. An IQ test score is a total score that measures many components of intelligence, differing depending on the IQ test that is used.

Most everyone in the general population that takes the test has strengths and weaknesses, in one area or another.

It just so happens that the difficulties in certain areas are common among some individuals with an autism diagnosis.

Please Bash, Ignor, or Defend Autism Speaks on this thread.

We are trying to produce a base for further discussion.

To Bash or not to Bash, that is the question.

For starters I wasn't talking about a deficiency in comprehension ever and I wasn't debating the idea that one doesn't need inference to understand metaphors or anything. You're just talking in circles now to be honest.


Back up an opinion? A definition isn't an opinion. it's your opinion that abstraction has anything to do with inference or metahors or figurative language. It's faith because you put faith in sources of official sites even when what they say is logically impossible. Apparently you say inference is abstract reasoning, not layered thinking like how I said.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abstraction

That isn't inference, that's comprehension.

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/ ... t+thinking

By the way, this is an american source


These have to do with calling a cat a cat, knowing that a drawridge doesn't allow people to cross itwhen it's up and knowing how to call something good and evil. This is abstraction, abstract thinking, not this pseudo-abstraction that you are trying to say is abstraction, a simply superfluous system of layered wordplay that people shouldn't use outside of art.



And I haven't given a damn whether you think it is or not because my only sticking point is that inference and metaphor are not abstraction or abstract reasoning. And you just added in that comprehension one too. You're tripping over yourself again.

I don't think it is that simple of a question. In order to modify behavior either on the part of one or another, it is helpful to understand what underlies the behavior. It seems to be an understanding that can be improved on both the part of autistics and autism speaks, for better communication in the future.

I would go as far to say that, it may be the crux of the whole issue.

Is it anyone at fault? Not really, it appears to be an inherent difference in communication that requires understanding by both parties involved. And, a larger issue in all areas of communication, when individuals inherently communicate differently.

I can tell someone, people communicate differently and they should respect the differences. Without an understanding of specifically what the differences are, not much resolution is possible.

I don't care about autism speaks. I care about the truth, justice and making sure nobody gets pushed around by arbitrary belief.

If autism speaks happens to be in the way of that then that's autism speak's fault. I have already made amends for my mistakes with myth. Can certain others here? No. They either contribute only jibes or prattle.

i hope you guys never choose careers as arson investigaters.you would never find the source of the fire and would spend all your time bicking about what has been burnt.dificulties in abstract communication follow dificulties in abstract thought.i will give you two words that are the source of the metaphorical fire.hypersensitivity and hyposensitivity.the two most crucial words in autistic psychology.for those who mock my intilect once again im right