Need educated on non-binary

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More alike than they are different and have stereotypical differences aren't mutually exclusive.

I've read tonnes on this, how the human brain and mind work has always been a topic of deep interest to me but if your goal is to just snark and condescend I'll leave you to it, enjoy yourself.

I have also read tons on this, neuroscience is also a special interest of mine and I don’t see how I was being condescending. Studies that say there are constant differences in certain regions of the brain are debunked after more subjects are examined. The brain is much more complicated than just saying, “All men’s brains are different than all females brains.” Telling me I’m denying reality, is snarky and condescending. I am not. I think you should read a little more on the topic.

I also can’t explain what years/decades of research has in one sentence. Brains are more complicated than female vs male, and two males brains can easily differ more than a male and a female if you get the right subjects.

Last edited by Brainiac42 on 30 Jun 2021, 1:01 pm, edited 2 times in total.

So what I should have said is, “they can be more alike than they are different”, because it isn’t so black and white.

Just chiming in for some anecdotal affirmation.

I was born male and feel male, and I don't use a person's behaviors to define their gender. I was a stereotypical guy in my childhood and teens, and identified as male. In my 20's I became increasingly more feminine, and still identified as a male. I also became ambivalent as to my gender, and wouldn't being either male or female, but I still identified as male. A few friends thought I might be trans, but when I thought about it seriously, I still felt like I was male. Many people in the femboy community I was part of started transitioning, which kinda aggravatingly blurred the identity of femboy and that community, but I still identified as male. These days I've had to put away my feminine side for mental health reasons, and though I'm predominantly masculine, that feminine side is still a part of me. Still male.

To me, gender is a confluence of mind and body regarding physical identity. Cisgender is when the mind agrees with the body. Transgender is when it does not.

Gender EXPRESSION, on the other hand, is the way in which we express our gender via speech, body language, dress, hobbies, etc etc; aka, behaviors.

These two definition make the sense to me.

That being said, although they're different things, there is a certain exchange of influence between gender and gender expression. The correlation is a little too strong to deny that. Sure, societal pressure is a strong influence, but I don't think it makes up all the difference. Look at transgender people, especially. For example how many transwomen transition into stereotypically male things? All those that I've met want to get as far away from all things male and masculine as possible.

But (once again) that being said, although genders tend towards certain archetypes of gender expression (aka:gender stereotypes), ultimately the expectations towards stereotypes is a flawed premise. People are not invalidated if they don't fall within the most common examples of what people can be. Any human is a case study, a proof of what a human can be.

In short: 1) gender = identity of body, 2) gender expression = behavioral profile, and 3) gender and expression may or may not strongly influence each other.

As far as non-binary, though....I have to confess I have no idea. According to what I've heard from some people, their definition of NB would have qualified me as NB even though I wasn't. Some also cite things that fall within category of gender expression as their NB identity. Perhaps it's similar to trans in that there is a disagreement between mind and body, just in a different manner to transgender? I'm not sure.

I'd also very much appreciate an explanation that actually jives with everything else. I'll be honest, both romantically and sexually I kind of steer away from pursuing those who identify as NB because I don't understand it and am not sure how I should think and behave around them as potential partners. Trans can be a bit difficult because of the physical difference and each of their preferences on how to handle those differences, but with NB I'm just clueless. Over time I might learn their preferences, but in the short term I just dread the prospect of being so preoccupied with not offending them that I'll have no leeway to just relax and be myself, and focus more on being who they want me to be. It's just too much complication to what's already a really complicated situation for me.

Part of the Crossing the Line ceremony while I was in the Navy.  I had to wear a dress and do the Spam Sketch (from memory) in front of the crew.  One of the Marine contingent even had a plastic Viking helmet.  It was great fun, and I am now an Honorable Shellback.

I thought you meant you were actually in one of the movies, but that is cool also. I like Monty Python.

I wish more people thought like you. My mother’s side of her family believe “men should be men” and work with their hands, and be manly... my cousin is not that at all, and he is often ridiculed for it. I don’t fit feminine stereotypes at all, but for some reason they find it much more intolerable if it is a man who does not fit gender norms. They are threatened by a man who is any different than the working on cars, sports type.. my cousin isn’t even feminine, he just cares about his clothing, style, and doesn’t like to work with his hands.

It’s nice to see people who don’t care about gender norms, and sees people for who they are.

I was being snarky in response but the underlined is 100% agreeable.

I wish it could be possible to control for brain development in response to social conditioning since that's one of several factors that could account for at least some of the differences described. I'd imagine if we wanted to control for some differences we'd compare androgen insensitive XY individuals against other cisgender women and I don't believe I've ever encountered that done before.

I would be very surprised if brains don't exist on a spectrum, even what I recall of studies involving transwomen vs. cismen compared to gay men vs. straight men is that the differences weren't the same.

Gender and sex identity upstairs are probably fuzzier than biology allows and people reconcile what goes on upstairs to their flesh in various ways, influenced by culture and their own biology. I think.

Stereotypical gender roles suck. These preset ideas on how a person should act based on chromosomes or whatever they do or don't have for body parts is ridiculous to me. Not everyone fits these 'norms'. And, that's okay. No one is a cookie cutter form. We are all individuals, unique to ourselves. Personally, that's one of the few things I like about people in general. Feeling a pressure to conform to those molds/norms is shi**y. The fact that backlash exists when people don't conform, also shi**y. Hopefully as time goes on, that sort of thing will become less and less of a reality for people.

Anyway.

Thing is though, while gender stereotypes and identity do have some ties that you can't avoid, gender identity is ultimately not born exclusively from these stereotypes, it's so much deeper than that. And because we are all unique, gender identity is going to be so different from person to person. For a lot of people, they might not fit the mold and still feel fine with identifying with their birth sex. For others, they won't. Both are perfectly okay. It's up to us all as individuals to be able to look into ourselves and know where we do or don't fit into all of this, society removed from the nonsense...it's a personal thing.

There is no reason why you can't be you and identify as a woman who doesn't conform to societies expectations of what a woman is. No one has any right or room to tell you who you are or are not.

My two cents.

There has been a relatively new tendency (in the last 15 or so years) that has created pressure for people who don't fit well into gender stereotypes to define their gender, and to actively choose a gender (rather than just going with the gender one was assigned), ideally one that speaks to their non-conforming to the stereotypes associated by society with a given gender. That's fine, and I believe everyone has a right to define themselves and that everyone should respect their definition of themselves. But it's not an imperative. And it's become in many cases a misattribution of what gender is and what it means.

Last edited by bee33 on 02 Jul 2021, 2:09 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Yes ... "Coming Out" seems to have become the fashionable thing to do.

There are statistically average differences, but not absolute differences, between male and female brains.