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Incel Mass shooter in UK identified as autistic

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funeralxempire
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13 Aug 2021, 10:14 pm

kraftiekortie wrote:
The emphasis, in this case, is on the “Incel” aspect of things. Much much more than on the “autistic” aspect of things.

The guy fell into the rabbit hole of the Incel ideology at a very young age.


I agree, but part of addressing the problem is confronting why that ideology is so appealing to some young men and why young men with ASD appear to be over-represented, both overall as well as among the ones who act out violently as a result.

The problem needs to be understood in order to help them and given how the problem intersects with ASD it's in the interests of the ASD community to be pro-active about helping keep vulnerable folks with ASD from falling down that rabbit hole or getting them out before they're on the news.

Shunning them and trying to downplay the connection doesn't help them and also doesn't help the folks with ASD who would never act that way and don't want to be associated with it because the media will keep mentioning autism whether most folks with ASD like it or not, so long as it continues to be true.


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IsabellaLinton
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13 Aug 2021, 10:18 pm

funeralxempire wrote:



I think overall you and I have similar concerns but weigh them differently, but also want similar results.

The irresponsible journalism around this issue is a problem, no doubt. That seems to be the general trend with journalism these days so I feel like it might be a distraction from focusing on the mental health aspect because I feel like more effort at the source of the problem makes more sense than focusing too much on how it's covered, but I agree with you that the way the issue is reported isn't very helpful.

Smother the fire vs take away it's fuel, either way we both agree the fire needs put out. 8)


I think we always agree, too.

You know I'm triggered by psychos, crime, helplessness, and bigotry. In lieu of having trauma meltdowns, I rant on here.

I hope you don't mind. It's fun to rant and spar with you even though we might be on the same page. 8)


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kraftiekortie
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13 Aug 2021, 10:20 pm

But the fact that most autistic folks wouldn’t hurt a fly should be emphasized.



funeralxempire
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13 Aug 2021, 10:22 pm

IsabellaLinton wrote:
funeralxempire wrote:
kraftiekortie wrote:
Autism didn’t cause this guy to murder.

It was something else….probably some sort of psychopathy.


But what if he doesn't meet that diagnostic criteria?

I think people are choosing to overlook that there's a small (but significant) number of young men who go online and slowly get absorbed into communities that unite around a shared special interest; how they're miserable, doomed to romantic failure and it's all everyone else's fault.

No, autism alone isn't making these guys act this way, but the tendency to ruminate on their own failures to the point they're unable to consider more healthy approaches and the echo chambers where they go to discuss their experiences can't be ignored.

No single factor leads to this outcome, but we'd do ourselves a disservice to ignore what appears to be a pretty consistent element. And since it is an element it's better that proposals for how to address it start coming from within because otherwise they'll be imposed by people who don't have sympathy for the ASD community.


As an autistic woman I've seen plenty of rhetoric that autistic men (or men in general) are bad. I don't fall for that shite, but some women drink the kool-aid and "get absorbed into communities" based on misandry and sexism. Are they called Femcels? (I'm not sure of the term but I've heard some seriously deranged extremists). I don't see the women going about killing people or committing hate crimes as a result. That's not to say that women can't be psychopaths. I just think that autistic men are really poorly understood, and it becomes a vicious cycle like you said earlier. The more they're vilified, the more alienated or disenfranchised autistic men will feel.

There are probably sympathisers out there right now, seeing that this man was autistic and identifying with his lack of dating success. Every time the media calls him "autistic", "lonely", or "a virgin", we stand the risk it will serve as a confirmation bias for people to commit copycat crimes. Very few people would identify with the perpetrator if the media said "He seemed to be insane. No healthy person would commit a crime like this. Now, let's talk about the victims instead of this POS killer".

I'd like to hear that more.


It is very curious why women with the same struggles don't seem to ever fall for the rage-filled path.
I'll repeat that only very few men do, but it seems to literally always be a man who does fall down that way.

And I wonder how much of that has to do with men internalizing the idea the rage is a manly expression of negative emotions whereas other expressions are less manly. The men who fall down that path almost always have very poor attitudes towards what makes a man, this is something that video I posted awhile back got into. When someone's absorbed the toxic attitude that healthy coping mechanisms aren't masculine that seems to set them up for a lot more struggles in life.

This is easier said than done, but guys gotta stop encouraging each other to be needledicks and emotionally stunted man-children as though that's actually what a man should be. Reactionary, toxic concepts surrounding masculinity are part of the problem.


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If you're not careful, the newspapers will have you hating the people who are being oppressed, and loving the people who are doing the oppressing. —Malcolm X
Just a reminder: under international law, an occupying power has no right of self-defense, and those who are occupied have the right and duty to liberate themselves by any means possible.


IsabellaLinton
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13 Aug 2021, 10:23 pm

funeralxempire wrote:
kraftiekortie wrote:
The emphasis, in this case, is on the “Incel” aspect of things. Much much more than on the “autistic” aspect of things.

The guy fell into the rabbit hole of the Incel ideology at a very young age.


I agree, but part of addressing the problem is confronting why that ideology is so appealing to some young men and why young men with ASD appear to be over-represented, both overall as well as among the ones who act out violently as a result.

The problem needs to be understood in order to help them and given how the problem intersects with ASD it's in the interests of the ASD community to be pro-active about helping keep vulnerable folks with ASD from falling down that rabbit hole or getting them out before they're on the news.

Shunning them and trying to downplay the connection doesn't help them and also doesn't help the folks with ASD who would never act that way and don't want to be associated with it because the media will keep mentioning autism whether most folks with ASD like it or not, so long as it continues to be true.


It's a known fact that many men (and women) on the spectrum have difficulty forming or maintaining romantic / sexual relationships. I hope you don't think I've been discrediting that truth, or saying that any frustrated autistic man is a psycho. I feel for these men, and wish there were more advocates for their mental health who could teach constructive dating or self-help skills. I wish there were more counsellors who would take these people seriously when they say they're depressed. I wish they weren't stigmatised. I wish I knew what to do, or how to help.


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kraftiekortie
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13 Aug 2021, 10:24 pm

Very poor attitude. And very distorted.



funeralxempire
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13 Aug 2021, 10:24 pm

IsabellaLinton wrote:
funeralxempire wrote:



I think overall you and I have similar concerns but weigh them differently, but also want similar results.

The irresponsible journalism around this issue is a problem, no doubt. That seems to be the general trend with journalism these days so I feel like it might be a distraction from focusing on the mental health aspect because I feel like more effort at the source of the problem makes more sense than focusing too much on how it's covered, but I agree with you that the way the issue is reported isn't very helpful.

Smother the fire vs take away it's fuel, either way we both agree the fire needs put out. 8)


I think we always agree, too.

You know I'm triggered by psychos, crime, helplessness, and bigotry. In lieu of having trauma meltdowns, I rant on here.

I hope you don't mind. It's fun to rant and spar with you even though we might be on the same page. 8)


Not at all, I figure people's ideas only really exist while they're being acted on or being discussed and more discussion helps refine our perspectives. :nerdy:


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The Party told you to reject the evidence of your eyes and ears. It was their final, most essential command.
If you're not careful, the newspapers will have you hating the people who are being oppressed, and loving the people who are doing the oppressing. —Malcolm X
Just a reminder: under international law, an occupying power has no right of self-defense, and those who are occupied have the right and duty to liberate themselves by any means possible.


kraftiekortie
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13 Aug 2021, 10:29 pm

He identified himself as autistic. I don’t know if he was actually diagnosed with it. He might not have been.



funeralxempire
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13 Aug 2021, 10:31 pm

IsabellaLinton wrote:
It's a known fact that many men (and women) on the spectrum have difficulty forming or maintaining romantic / sexual relationships. I hope you don't think I've been discrediting that truth, or saying that any frustrated autistic man is a psycho. I feel for these men, and wish there were more advocates for their mental health who could teach constructive dating or self-help skills. I wish there were more counsellors who would take these people seriously when they say they're depressed. I wish they weren't stigmatised. I wish I knew what to do, or how to help.


I don't believe you've suggested that in the slightest. I'm not even sure it was implied by anyone but when I'm not certain I'll sometimes try to get people to clarify no, that's not what's meant/desired/etc just so it's been said clearly. Recently I've had this called a strawman when ultimately it's just pursuing clarification.

I agree with you about wishing there was a way to more constructively help these guys. Often incel and pick-up artist type communities are the only communities where this guys are able to find support and comfort and what they perceive as advice, but what they receive is so toxic it has the potential to ruin their lives.

When guys with those attitudes post on here they get banned instead of lead towards healthier paths and I'm not sure if I have a solution but a part of me feels like that's this site failing those guys. That's why I'm bristly about anything that appears like the autistic community shunning the people vulnerable to those ideologies, because many of them are part of it whether the rest of us like it or not, whether or not the rest of us acknowledge it, etc.

They're us and need help.


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The Party told you to reject the evidence of your eyes and ears. It was their final, most essential command.
If you're not careful, the newspapers will have you hating the people who are being oppressed, and loving the people who are doing the oppressing. —Malcolm X
Just a reminder: under international law, an occupying power has no right of self-defense, and those who are occupied have the right and duty to liberate themselves by any means possible.


kraftiekortie
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13 Aug 2021, 10:34 pm

No. They shouldn’t be shunned.

But they are a stubborn bunch and don’t really listen to what others say.

They believe in their distortions staunchly.



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13 Aug 2021, 10:43 pm

kraftiekortie wrote:
No. They shouldn’t be shunned.

But they are a stubborn bunch and don’t really listen to what others say.

They believe in their distortions staunchly.


I don't think it makes them stubborn or distorted. It makes them frustrated. Some of them have tried everything, and it's natural that they'd feel very upset being alone. Many others don't have the skill to "listen to what others say", because that usually means ignoring their feelings or trying to meet people and exude self-confidence when they don't know how.

Regardless, being upset, frustrated, alienated, angry, or even horny shouldn't make a person kill. There's a huge difference between lonely autistic people and those who commit suicide or choose to become murderers and sadists. That takes a special kind of insanity, and it has nothing to do with autism.


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funeralxempire
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13 Aug 2021, 10:44 pm

kraftiekortie wrote:
No. They shouldn’t be shunned.

But they are a stubborn bunch and don’t really listen to what others say.

They believe in their distortions staunchly.


It's hard to convince people to reject a position when their response to perspectives from outside the echo chamber is to immediately distrust the source. This seems to slowly turn what at first are unorthodox perspectives into full-on delusions. In some ways they operate like cults and as one's identity becomes more consumed by being a part of the community they end up completely untethered from the real-world and it gets harder and harder to bring them back.


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The Party told you to reject the evidence of your eyes and ears. It was their final, most essential command.
If you're not careful, the newspapers will have you hating the people who are being oppressed, and loving the people who are doing the oppressing. —Malcolm X
Just a reminder: under international law, an occupying power has no right of self-defense, and those who are occupied have the right and duty to liberate themselves by any means possible.


funeralxempire
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13 Aug 2021, 10:48 pm

IsabellaLinton wrote:
kraftiekortie wrote:
No. They shouldn’t be shunned.

But they are a stubborn bunch and don’t really listen to what others say.

They believe in their distortions staunchly.


I don't think it makes them stubborn or distorted. It makes them frustrated. Some of them have tried everything, and it's natural that they'd feel very upset being alone. Many others don't have the skill to "listen to what others say", because that usually means ignoring their feelings or trying to meet people and exude self-confidence when they don't know how.

Regardless, being upset, frustrated, alienated, angry, or even horny shouldn't make a person kill. There's a huge difference between lonely autistic people and those who commit suicide or choose to become murderers and sadists. That takes a special kind of insanity, and it has nothing to do with autism.


Most people who kill aren't insane though. These folks might be very detached from reality but they're not insane either.

People who deal with being ostracized and dehumanized by dehumanizing the people they blame as responsible don't need to be insane to kill. They just need to feel a grave enough wound has been committed against their ego.

The big difference between those who kill themselves and those who try to go out in a blaze of glory is where they place the blame for their failings. And I think we've had case studies within this community that show how some young men with ASD can be very prone to redirecting blame for their failures away from themselves.


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If you're not careful, the newspapers will have you hating the people who are being oppressed, and loving the people who are doing the oppressing. —Malcolm X
Just a reminder: under international law, an occupying power has no right of self-defense, and those who are occupied have the right and duty to liberate themselves by any means possible.


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13 Aug 2021, 10:52 pm

When I say insanity, I'm using the term loosely.

They don't know right from wrong, or if they do they don't care because of a lack of empathy for others. In my books that's insanity or psychopathic / sociopathic behaviour. I know the psychiatric criteria and the legal jargon but it's still unnatural for a depressed person to go that far.


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13 Aug 2021, 11:03 pm

funeralxempire wrote:
It is very curious why women with the same struggles don't seem to ever fall for the rage-filled path.
I'll repeat that only very few men do, but it seems to literally always be a man who does fall down that way.

Isn't it obvious? Dudes are brainwashed into violence since they are kids. Kind of like dudettes are brainwashed into "looking pretty".



funeralxempire
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13 Aug 2021, 11:10 pm

StrayCat81 wrote:
funeralxempire wrote:
It is very curious why women with the same struggles don't seem to ever fall for the rage-filled path.
I'll repeat that only very few men do, but it seems to literally always be a man who does fall down that way.

Isn't it obvious? Dudes are brainwashed into violence since they are kids. Kind of like dudettes are brainwashed into "looking pretty".


I should have used a sarcasm tag. :nerdy:


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The Party told you to reject the evidence of your eyes and ears. It was their final, most essential command.
If you're not careful, the newspapers will have you hating the people who are being oppressed, and loving the people who are doing the oppressing. —Malcolm X
Just a reminder: under international law, an occupying power has no right of self-defense, and those who are occupied have the right and duty to liberate themselves by any means possible.