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Niall
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04 Feb 2017, 1:47 pm

iliketrees wrote:
Niall wrote:
Feminism is not about increasing women's rights at the expense of those of men

I have neither said this nor believe this. In fact I've already stated that I don't believe this to be true. You're fighting a strawman.

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than treat women with respect

More lazy strawman tactics.

Address me instead of your strawman please.


Then what, precisely, is your problem with feminism?


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iliketrees
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04 Feb 2017, 1:53 pm

Niall wrote:
iliketrees wrote:
Niall wrote:
Feminism is not about increasing women's rights at the expense of those of men

I have neither said this nor believe this. In fact I've already stated that I don't believe this to be true. You're fighting a strawman.

Quote:
than treat women with respect

More lazy strawman tactics.

Address me instead of your strawman please.


Then what, precisely, is your problem with feminism?

I have already stated it. I don't believe women are "oppressed"/"disadvantaged in a patriarchal society".



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04 Feb 2017, 2:00 pm

What is with all the stuff relating autism to SJWs and vice versa lately, fine I get it all of us with autism are SJWs...at least any of us who care about things like social and environmental issues.


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04 Feb 2017, 2:05 pm

nevermind, didn't realize this was an example of thread necromancy.


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Last edited by Sweetleaf on 04 Feb 2017, 2:10 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Niall
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04 Feb 2017, 2:07 pm

iliketrees wrote:
I have already stated it. I don't believe women are "oppressed"/"disadvantaged in a patriarchal society".


Then perhaps you could explain, for example (I could go on, just as I could go on about how auties are disadvantaged in NT society - these are some quick examples), this lot: http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/7-f ... d3359c8e5a

Seriously, if you think there are no systems disadvantaging many groups in most societies, you need to do some reading.


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Niall
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04 Feb 2017, 2:10 pm

Sweetleaf wrote:
What is with all the stuff relating autism to SJWs and vice versa lately, fine I get it all of us with autism are SJWs...at least any of us who care about things like social and environmental issues.


Hopefully it means those who either don't care or want to retain their privilege are finally being made uncomfortable. :D


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04 Feb 2017, 2:30 pm

I will admit my privileges. I can afford medicine, I don't have to worry about war, I don't have to worry about ISIS, I have access to healthcare, I can afford food, I have access to education, etc. I think women have extra privileges such as winning custody battles, access to domestic violence support, less likely to be convicted of crimes, and get less sentencing. I think the best way to stop racism in this country is education. I think a large amount of minorities cannot afford education, which leads to many of the problems minority's face today. I reject the wage gap due to a flawed methods. It took all the money men earned and all the money women earned and did not account for any other factors. I am egalitarian I think we should work am men and women issues. I think women face the most problems in the 3rd works, and wish more focus would be paid there and less on middle class people wanting attention.



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04 Feb 2017, 3:00 pm

You probably shouldn't listen to Sargon from what I hear. He received warnings, angered allot of people on a forum I was a part of and regularly annoyed some people I got along well with.



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04 Feb 2017, 3:05 pm

Niall wrote:
iliketrees wrote:
I have already stated it. I don't believe women are "oppressed"/"disadvantaged in a patriarchal society".


Then perhaps you could explain, for example (I could go on, just as I could go on about how auties are disadvantaged in NT society - these are some quick examples), this lot: http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/7-f ... d3359c8e5a

Seriously, if you think there are no systems disadvantaging many groups in most societies, you need to do some reading.

I know there are issues women face more than men. But I also know there are issues men face more than women. I don't believe the issues women have outnumber or are worse, hence do not believe women are disadvantaged.

As for the link, that pay inequality thing (and the different jobs) is explained in another huffpost:
http://m.huffpost.com/us/entry/2073804



Niall
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04 Feb 2017, 7:05 pm

BettaPonic wrote:
I will admit my privileges. I can afford medicine, I don't have to worry about war, I don't have to worry about ISIS, I have access to healthcare, I can afford food, I have access to education, etc. I think women have extra privileges such as winning custody battles, access to domestic violence support, less likely to be convicted of crimes, and get less sentencing. I think the best way to stop racism in this country is education. I think a large amount of minorities cannot afford education, which leads to many of the problems minority's face today. I reject the wage gap due to a flawed methods. It took all the money men earned and all the money women earned and did not account for any other factors. I am egalitarian I think we should work am men and women issues. I think women face the most problems in the 3rd works, and wish more focus would be paid there and less on middle class people wanting attention.



A feminist analysis would advocate addressing question where men are disadvantaged. It wouldn't be a confrontation if certain people didn't insist on making it one. Similarly, there is very much an awareness that there are issues surrounding international relations. That having been said, in those countries where healthcare is not free at the point of use, it tends to be women who are more likely to go without: this is one explanation for the discrepancy between rates of diagnosis between boys and girls when it comes to Asperger syndrome. Related issues may explain discrepancies across ethnic groups: you're simply more likely to have access to diagnosis if you're white and middle class than you are if you are poor and brown.


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Niall
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04 Feb 2017, 7:34 pm

iliketrees wrote:
Niall wrote:

Seriously, if you think there are no systems disadvantaging many groups in most societies, you need to do some reading.

I know there are issues women face more than men. But I also know there are issues men face more than women. I don't believe the issues women have outnumber or are worse, hence do not believe women are disadvantaged.

As for the link, that pay inequality thing (and the different jobs) is explained in another huffpost:
http://m.huffpost.com/us/entry/2073804


It's not about what you "believe": that's okay for god, but not social policy. It's about where the evidence leads.

Which brings me to your link. Aha. I see what she did there. First trick, get a woman to write it, but wait until the small print at the bottom of the page before mentioning she works for the kind of right-wing think tank that has been wrapped up with climate change denial. Credibility: not great.

Okay, so when you compare lawyers with lawyers and librarians with librarians, the effect becomes much smaller. Then she goes on to put down the reason why there are more male lawyers and more female librarians to "bad choices" (a common right-wing trope used to cover up systemic failings). It's not a choice if the system is set up in such a way as to limit those choices, something the kind of woman who ends up working for right-wing think tanks probably doesn't know.

So, if it's "bad choices" (that many women making "bad choices"? More than men? Seriously?) we'd expect such a gap to be limited in international scope. Is it? Well, nah: https://www.oecd.org/gender/data/genderwagegap.htm

When you distort the numbers, you can get some entitled woman from the American Enterprise Institute to write whatever backs up the status quo. Her credibility isn't impressive. Her reasoning is less so.


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04 Feb 2017, 8:00 pm

Niall wrote:
BettaPonic wrote:
I will admit my privileges. I can afford medicine, I don't have to worry about war, I don't have to worry about ISIS, I have access to healthcare, I can afford food, I have access to education, etc. I think women have extra privileges such as winning custody battles, access to domestic violence support, less likely to be convicted of crimes, and get less sentencing. I think the best way to stop racism in this country is education. I think a large amount of minorities cannot afford education, which leads to many of the problems minority's face today. I reject the wage gap due to a flawed methods. It took all the money men earned and all the money women earned and did not account for any other factors. I am egalitarian I think we should work am men and women issues. I think women face the most problems in the 3rd works, and wish more focus would be paid there and less on middle class people wanting attention.



A feminist analysis would advocate addressing question where men are disadvantaged. It wouldn't be a confrontation if certain people didn't insist on making it one. Similarly, there is very much an awareness that there are issues surrounding international relations. That having been said, in those countries where healthcare is not free at the point of use, it tends to be women who are more likely to go without: this is one explanation for the discrepancy between rates of diagnosis between boys and girls when it comes to Asperger syndrome. Related issues may explain discrepancies across ethnic groups: you're simply more likely to have access to diagnosis if you're white and middle class than you are if you are poor and brown.


Another explanation that has been suggested is females show Autism in a different way than the average male. A lot of conditions affect one sex more than the other,



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05 Feb 2017, 2:03 am

Niall wrote:
It's not about what you "believe": that's okay for god, but not social policy. It's about where the evidence leads.

And where might I find a total analysis of both genders and their struggles by someone without a bias? The "evidence" I'd need doesn't appear to exist.

Quote:
Which brings me to your link. Aha. I see what she did there. First trick, get a woman to write it, but wait until the small print at the bottom of the page before mentioning she works for the kind of right-wing think tank that has been wrapped up with climate change denial. Credibility: not great.

Instead of lazily skipping straight to who wrote it, how about you read what's being said?

Quote:
Then she goes on to put down the reason why there are more male lawyers and more female librarians to "bad choices" (a common right-wing trope used to cover up systemic failings)

...

So, if it's "bad choices" (that many women making "bad choices"? More than men? Seriously?) we'd expect such a gap to be limited in international scope. Is it? Well, nah: https://www.oecd.org/gender/data/genderwagegap.htm

Is it physically impossible for you to not use a strawman? Not once does it say anything about "bad choices".

Quote:
It's not a choice if the system is set up in such a way as to limit those choices, something the kind of woman who ends up working for right-wing think tanks probably doesn't know

Oh good, more insulting the person instead of addressing what they say. Yeah, the article mentions this too. Really getting the feeling you've not read it.

Quote:
Her reasoning is less so.

You don't feel you're being a hypocrite here if you're misrepresentating her points and "poisoning the well"?



Niall
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05 Feb 2017, 7:24 am

I think you read the article. I think you failed to read it critically. This article is part of a broader narrative propounded by the neoliberal right wing and their allies that tries to tell you there isn't a problem. Part of that narrative involves insisting that everyone is already equal, and that everything is down to their delusional cult of personal choice.

Everyone and their granny is biased. That isn't news. I'm asking you to understand those biases.

That female lawyers typically earn only slightly less than their male counterparts isn't news. Male and female librarians are probably paid similarly for the same work.

The feminist asks why more men become lawyers and more women become librarians.

The neoliberal invested in the status quo (like the author of this article) tells you it is because men choose to do some things and women choose to do other things. They will tell you white people choose to get jobs and black people choose to become criminals. Aspies are presumably lazy and can't be bothered to get jobs or become criminals.

The feminist asks why it is that people make these decisions, and whether certain choices are, for most practical purposes, closed off to them.

What this article, and others like it, does is distort evidence we already knew in order to persuade you there isn't a problem - that all it takes is for more women to make the choices that lead them to become lawyers, and to negotiate harder with their employers like men do.

The feminist argues that there are systems in place in society preventing them from doing so, and these are the same systems that result in Trump's abandonment of the ACA disproportionately hitting women, in US jails being full of black men, and Aspies having an 85% unemployment rate. These are all parts of the same problem, which is why you have social justice warriors, in everyone's interest.

Articles like this one are an intellectual trap.


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05 Feb 2017, 7:40 am

Quote:
This article is part of a broader narrative propounded by the neoliberal right wing and their allies that tries to tell you there isn't a problem

What evidence do you have of that?

Quote:
They will tell you white people choose to get jobs and black people choose to become criminals. Aspies are presumably lazy and can't be bothered to get jobs or become criminals.

Seriously, are you even aware you're doing this? This is just plain ridiculous.

Quote:
involves insisting that everyone is already equal
...
tells you it is because men choose to do some things and women choose to do other things
...
persuade you there isn't a problem

Please read what's actually being said in the article. This isn't the point being made at all.



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05 Feb 2017, 7:58 am

Niall wrote:
I think you read the article. I think you failed to read it critically. This article is part of a broader narrative propounded by the neoliberal right wing and their allies that tries to tell you there isn't a problem. Part of that narrative involves insisting that everyone is already equal, and that everything is down to their delusional cult of personal choice.

Everyone and their granny is biased. That isn't news. I'm asking you to understand those biases.

That female lawyers typically earn only slightly less than their male counterparts isn't news. Male and female librarians are probably paid similarly for the same work.

The feminist asks why more men become lawyers and more women become librarians.

The neoliberal invested in the status quo (like the author of this article) tells you it is because men choose to do some things and women choose to do other things. They will tell you white people choose to get jobs and black people choose to become criminals. Aspies are presumably lazy and can't be bothered to get jobs or become criminals.

The feminist asks why it is that people make these decisions, and whether certain choices are, for most practical purposes, closed off to them.

What this article, and others like it, does is distort evidence we already knew in order to persuade you there isn't a problem - that all it takes is for more women to make the choices that lead them to become lawyers, and to negotiate harder with their employers like men do.

The feminist argues that there are systems in place in society preventing them from doing so, and these are the same systems that result in Trump's abandonment of the ACA disproportionately hitting women, in US jails being full of black men, and Aspies having an 85% unemployment rate. These are all parts of the same problem, which is why you have social justice warriors, in everyone's interest.

Articles like this one are an intellectual trap.


There are neurological differences of the brain between men and women though. I believe in making it as easy as possible for a women to become a layer and a man to become a librarian. I believe in equality of opportunity not equality of outcome.