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aghogday
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17 Dec 2011, 10:56 pm

Nexus wrote:
aghogday wrote:
lau wrote:
aghogday wrote:
...
... the same stuff again.


I'm providing information, not only for response, but for anyone that might pop in looking for facts that can be verified through third part references.

Some of it is repetitive, but I'm not just responding to your viewpoint, I'm doing my best to provide objective information, for anyone that might be interested in it.


Isn't that supposed to be a PR person's job? Just saying.


I saw your comment in another thread.

"company's/organisation's interest and discrediting or exhausting their opponents in a level that would be considered excessive for an ordinary person to do"

I used to go in Best Buy and argue the point incessantly why Big Satellite Analog TV picture quality was much better than little dish digital TV, with the sales people.

I wondered why more people weren't interested in it than me, and why I got strange looks. The facts mattered to me, the picture was better, I could back it up with detailed evidence, and thought doesn't this matter to other people.

Back in the 70's I bought some fog lights for my 1970 maverick, installed them, and wondered why I was the only one that had come up with such a great idea, in traffic.

I neither convinced people that the 10 foot dish or fog lights were a necessity.

I'm not an ordinary person. But I would never make it in the PR world, I bore people with detailed facts, that mean more to me than others.

I think it is called monologuing in the world of autism, which is sometimes associated with a special interest.

A PR person must have the ability to dialogue, discussions here are mostly parallel monologues, individuals from separate Universes where most communication never really intersects. I'm guilty of that, understand it completely, but have little to no ability for dialogue, and likely never will experience it the way most others do.

My wife can explain it better than I can.

More importantly a PR person must know when to be quiet when enough is said, and just listen.

My wife can explain the problem there as well.

An internet site for autistic people is not likely a place where a PR effort could possibly work, unless everyone was singing from the same sheet of music. In general, Autistic people don't do that.

If one cannot tell they are talking to a computer, it is possible that they are a computer.

Plenty of people in my life told me my mind was like a computer, I never quite understood what that meant until I came here and had the ability to talk to other computers.

See, I'm doing it again. :)



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18 Dec 2011, 3:33 am

Autism Speaks has been quite useful. They have disproved everything they set out to prove, and been the main motivation for others to explore the range of autism.

Alex for one has benefitted, and the Autism he produces, seems nothing like the Autism Autism Speaks claims.

While they do show the narrow range of NT thinking, there are a lot of NTs.

Having followed the story from Drugs are the answer, followed up by legal intervention, to Genetics are the answer, till even grant applicants can come up with nothing, and have to admit it is the human condition.

It has narrowed down to a claim that some Behavioral Therapy helps some children, who might be autistic.

My question, What Therapy? Who was helped, what was their age, Dx, and what treatments for how long. No answers yet.

Since they claim the worst of the worst is Autism, the hopeless cases, makes a claim that some were helped even more questionable.

The track record has been a string of gusses, each disproven in turn, and now with massive funding, Autism Speaks is coming up with the same, no one has any idea.

While this is the status quo for autism, a recently recognized version of autism, has been widely accepted. Autism as seen by Wired magazine, is not the Autism of Autism Speaks.

While the NT leadership of Autism Speaks turns to Professionals, we who are not children, lack faith in Professionals, develop self education in many fields, and see computers as a mirror of Autism. This Applied Autism view is in conflict with others, being as we are stuck here, and making the best of the hand we were dealt.

While they take years of training in clinical methods, we see autism in contrast to a larger culture, which tends to self destruct. We have a stronger outsider view on almost everything, from Culture, to Economics.

In the older, pre Dx Free Range Aspies, Autism became a sub culture, was ingrained and developed, long before we connected it to autism. 59 in my case. I called it Scorpio Biker Syndrome, and contrasted it to cage driving conformist.

This is a fairly large sub culture, and Autism Speaks has managed to insult it. Bikers, Nerds, Geeks, are cultural icons. While it seems we all agree that Autism is present, it is not like we are going to change, and we have been told we were wrong before.

Autistic people have always been around and found a place to fit in. They survived outside of the major culture, and found ways that worked for them.

I have followed Autism Speaks in hopes of learning something useful. For all of their money they disappoint me. Wrong Planet is a reaction to them, and there I learned that many of my ways are shared by others. Autism explains a lot, could be very useful, but only if developed by those with some insight.



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18 Dec 2011, 3:41 am

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Last edited by nat4200 on 19 Apr 2012, 5:31 am, edited 1 time in total.

aghogday
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18 Dec 2011, 1:09 pm

nat4200 wrote:
aghogday wrote:
I used to go in Best Buy and argue the point incessantly why Big Satellite Analog TV picture quality was much better than little dish digital TV, with the sales people.


That's easy: there's bigger commission on the big dish one obviously :lol:


Not sure how it is now, my big dish no longer exists.

But, back in the early nineties, one could watch a great deal of programming free on a big dish, and order channels ala-carte. It was actually much cheaper than a small dish satellite or cable at that time per monthly services. At least here in the US.

The picture quality at that time though was remarkable compared to small dish TV, well before HD came along. Because one was watching the orginal master signal, at 480I rather than a digitally compressed image without the full range of video information.

An analogy would be a highly compressed jpeg image, with digital artifacts as compared to a bit-map image.

I could go on about it just like Autism Speaks and Autism in general, but it's way off topic. So I'll stop now. :)



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18 Dec 2011, 2:31 pm

Inventor wrote:
It has narrowed down to a claim that some Behavioral Therapy helps some children, who might be autistic.

My question, What Therapy? Who was helped, what was their age, Dx, and what treatments for how long. No answers yet.

Since they claim the worst of the worst is Autism, the hopeless cases, makes a claim that some were helped even more questionable.

While this is the status quo for autism, a recently recognized version of autism, has been widely accepted. Autism as seen by Wired magazine, is not the Autism of Autism Speaks.


Peer reviewed research sponsored by the Federal Government is the source of the claim that Behavioral therapy has shown to be effective in some children with Autism.

In your last question, in another thread, you asked which therapy has been proven effective. The summary article that I gave you provided that answer, Behavioral Therapy.

The specific type of behavioral therapy shown to be effective is Applied Behavioral analysis ABA therapy, in some children with autism disorder. Treatment time, specific diagnosis, specific age from 2 to 12, varies, and is provided in the detailed analysis of each research study.

The actual peer reviewed meta-analysis provides all the details you are asking for now, per specific studies analyzed. It is extremely detailed, provides the information you are asking for here now, and many more details on the effectiveness of many types of treatment currently being used for Autism, other than ABA.

http://www.effectivehealthcare.ahrq.gov/ehc/products/106/656/CER26_Autism_Report_04-14-2011.pdf

The actual Autism referred to in Wired magazine that is reported, spiraling upward, in the article about Geek syndrome in silicon valley is the autism that autism speaks focuses on.

They are speaking to the parents as having geek syndrome, but the children measured with the autism of those parents, suggested to be on the extreme increase, don't even include children with Aspergers, per that actual article.

And the article's description of the increase, as "dark and unsettling" is certainly as negative a description of the incidence of autism, as any I have heard. Makes it sound like something evil is happening down there in Silicon Valley.

Quote:
And now, something dark and unsettling is happening in Silicon Valley.

In the past decade, there has been a significant surge in the number of kids diagnosed with autism throughout California. In August 1993, there were 4,911 cases of so-called level-one autism logged in the state's Department of Developmental Services client-management system. This figure doesn't include kids with Asperger's syndrome, like Nick, but only those who have received a diagnosis of classic autism. In the mid-'90s, this caseload started spiraling up.

In 1999, the number of clients was more than double what it had been six years earlier. Then the curve started spiking. By July 2001, there were 15,441 clients in the DDS database. Now there are more than seven new cases of level-one autism - 85 percent of them children - entering the system every day.

Through the '90s, cases tripled in California. "Anyone who says this is due to better diagnostics has his head in the sand."


http://www.wired.com/wired/archive/9.12/aspergers_pr.html



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21 Dec 2011, 3:07 am

It looks like we will never get therapy for $60,000 a year, for ten years.

The Wired article mentions several people, the autistic, and it seems there is an other side, not stock human, fit to function in the current world, but word using and able to interact to some degree.

I like the artist describing her painting, I do some photoshop, enlarge and sharpen, manual, and those rainbows are real, the defraction of light around all things, which we mostly filter out, but that is the way the world looks.

My view, Autism Speaks takes the worst view, the reality is over time we become more like other people, and older people as I have pointed out become more like us.

There is a stop and reboot, the differance in thought and perception comes on strong. They move onto another development path, and it seems all effort is to get them back on the standard rails, which does not seem to be the outcome.

I see this as a symptom of a larger trend, I my life I have observed Neotony, And the Information Age developing. We are not the same people we were fifty years ago, and a lot of that change has been the rise of Geeks, Information and Technology.

Older than me Arther Clarke wrote Childhood's End, about a point that we were converging on where the children became different, understood each other, but were different than their parents. I do think he went a bit far.

It is a watershed, all prior generations could learn about the past generation and carry it on. A study of the recent past was suitable for times of slow development, but now development does not wait a generation, Captian Kirk with his big belt mounted communicator, to an iphone.

Just processing more information can lead to different development, Just consider the hours of TV that most small children are exposed to. I remember my girl in diapers, non verbal, who wore out several copies of Look Who's Talking Now. She could load a VCR, knew all the buttons, long before she could speak, and asked for a new tape when she wore the old one out. That was in her contol, but she also watched a lot of other TV.

The input load on small children has gone up considerably. TVs got larger, I read a blog by a woman who wrote of her daughter, now it is Dora The Explorer, and a pre verbal kid who knows DVDs, Netflix, and surprised her with "Rent It" She also mentioned her daughter learned Spanish on her own.

I knew another who when I showed up with the first laptop she had ever seen, She had been using my kids desktop, Motioned that all of the computer was in one, Which she saw as about time, her size, and said Care Bears, which was what she had been watching. It took her all of a few seconds to start using the first laptop she had seen.

She had very few words, but learned to type Care Bears, She did not know her ABCs, but knew what Care Bears looked like. When I unplugged the phone line from the desk top, plugged it into the laptop, She understood the Internet came through that wire. She was using a few single words, was about two, but could make the machine give her Care Bears.

Before she could speak, learned her ABCs, she was using written language to control machines.

As a treat she took me into the living room, loaded Fox and Hound, in the VCR, and told me the plot, They were different, like us, but friends. She shared her favorite movie with me.

I thought her learning slowed down when she was potty trained, wore clothes, had to learn human rules, a vauge and confusing thing. About the time she started school her learning picked up again. I think all kids go through ups and downs of learning, as they are trying to process new things.

Autism is extreme, but the pattern remains, Fast forward, slow to a stop, lost ground to an outside observer, then development on a new path.

I think the increased input may ret*d the process of neuron pruning, causing more than are used to get retained. Like the Neo Cortex, how long did it take to get control of that?

We did not grow larger brains until we used them. The inputs of children are now far beyond my days of playing with a toy on the floor. I think I grew up with a lack of input, there was hardly anything to take apart. I was fifteen before I did my first frame up motorcycle rebuild. Hardly any tools, books, but I did it. I rode that one for years. I learned to fix broken machines by taking them apart.

I learned from the work, I am fairly sure the Silicon Valley kids grew up with TV, Computers, music, cell phones, and processing overload might be the cause of run away brain development. Excess inputs retarding the neuron pruning, causing a crash, which when they do start developing again, now have a lot more neurons to apply, and hence, a differance of thought and perception.

I do not think we are evolving, like a Neo Neo Cortex, but there is a plastic range, and stepping over a threshold of neurons, is going to produce a result. It does seem to happen in highly intelligent families, who would have the latest gagets. As I mentioned before, upper class Victorian families seemed to have produced children who were kept as babies until six or seven.

I do not think we should try to stop it, but some adaption is needed.

It seems to be true that Autistics have more and denser neurons, and larger heads. The cause seems to be more inputs leading to a lack of neuron pruning. It is becoming more and more common.

Type one autism would not be missed, it is noticable. That it seems to have increased 300% in a decade, points to it continuing to increase. No Cure, no Treatment, Just dealing with the result.

I think that is where I, and many others differ with Autism Speaks, we have to function as we are, not as the past thinks we should be. We are the mechanics, geeks, nerds, that make your world run. It is our world too, and the future will be different, much different.

I think in terms of Applied Autism, of developing our differance.



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21 Dec 2011, 5:05 pm

Inventor wrote:
It looks like we will never get therapy for $60,000 a year, for ten years.

The Wired article mentions several people, the autistic, and it seems there is an other side, not stock human, fit to function in the current world, but word using and able to interact to some degree.

I like the artist describing her painting, I do some photoshop, enlarge and sharpen, manual, and those rainbows are real, the defraction of light around all things, which we mostly filter out, but that is the way the world looks.

My view, Autism Speaks takes the worst view, the reality is over time we become more like other people, and older people as I have pointed out become more like us.

There is a stop and reboot, the differance in thought and perception comes on strong. They move onto another development path, and it seems all effort is to get them back on the standard rails, which does not seem to be the outcome.

I see this as a symptom of a larger trend, I my life I have observed Neotony, And the Information Age developing. We are not the same people we were fifty years ago, and a lot of that change has been the rise of Geeks, Information and Technology.

Older than me Arther Clarke wrote Childhood's End, about a point that we were converging on where the children became different, understood each other, but were different than their parents. I do think he went a bit far.

It is a watershed, all prior generations could learn about the past generation and carry it on. A study of the recent past was suitable for times of slow development, but now development does not wait a generation, Captian Kirk with his big belt mounted communicator, to an iphone.

Just processing more information can lead to different development, Just consider the hours of TV that most small children are exposed to. I remember my girl in diapers, non verbal, who wore out several copies of Look Who's Talking Now. She could load a VCR, knew all the buttons, long before she could speak, and asked for a new tape when she wore the old one out. That was in her contol, but she also watched a lot of other TV.

The input load on small children has gone up considerably. TVs got larger, I read a blog by a woman who wrote of her daughter, now it is Dora The Explorer, and a pre verbal kid who knows DVDs, Netflix, and surprised her with "Rent It" She also mentioned her daughter learned Spanish on her own.

I knew another who when I showed up with the first laptop she had ever seen, She had been using my kids desktop, Motioned that all of the computer was in one, Which she saw as about time, her size, and said Care Bears, which was what she had been watching. It took her all of a few seconds to start using the first laptop she had seen.

She had very few words, but learned to type Care Bears, She did not know her ABCs, but knew what Care Bears looked like. When I unplugged the phone line from the desk top, plugged it into the laptop, She understood the Internet came through that wire. She was using a few single words, was about two, but could make the machine give her Care Bears.

Before she could speak, learned her ABCs, she was using written language to control machines.

As a treat she took me into the living room, loaded Fox and Hound, in the VCR, and told me the plot, They were different, like us, but friends. She shared her favorite movie with me.

I thought her learning slowed down when she was potty trained, wore clothes, had to learn human rules, a vauge and confusing thing. About the time she started school her learning picked up again. I think all kids go through ups and downs of learning, as they are trying to process new things.

Autism is extreme, but the pattern remains, Fast forward, slow to a stop, lost ground to an outside observer, then development on a new path.

I think the increased input may ret*d the process of neuron pruning, causing more than are used to get retained. Like the Neo Cortex, how long did it take to get control of that?

We did not grow larger brains until we used them. The inputs of children are now far beyond my days of playing with a toy on the floor. I think I grew up with a lack of input, there was hardly anything to take apart. I was fifteen before I did my first frame up motorcycle rebuild. Hardly any tools, books, but I did it. I rode that one for years. I learned to fix broken machines by taking them apart.

I learned from the work, I am fairly sure the Silicon Valley kids grew up with TV, Computers, music, cell phones, and processing overload might be the cause of run away brain development. Excess inputs retarding the neuron pruning, causing a crash, which when they do start developing again, now have a lot more neurons to apply, and hence, a differance of thought and perception.

I do not think we are evolving, like a Neo Neo Cortex, but there is a plastic range, and stepping over a threshold of neurons, is going to produce a result. It does seem to happen in highly intelligent families, who would have the latest gagets. As I mentioned before, upper class Victorian families seemed to have produced children who were kept as babies until six or seven.

I do not think we should try to stop it, but some adaption is needed.

It seems to be true that Autistics have more and denser neurons, and larger heads. The cause seems to be more inputs leading to a lack of neuron pruning. It is becoming more and more common.

Type one autism would not be missed, it is noticable. That it seems to have increased 300% in a decade, points to it continuing to increase. No Cure, no Treatment, Just dealing with the result.

I think that is where I, and many others differ with Autism Speaks, we have to function as we are, not as the past thinks we should be. We are the mechanics, geeks, nerds, that make your world run. It is our world too, and the future will be different, much different.

I think in terms of Applied Autism, of developing our differance.


The mechanics, geeks, and nerds, that make the world run, are identified the same way they always have for the most part. And at least in some cases they are considered the consistent, predictable model citizens of society.

They have been part of the norm; having a place in society for the most part.

The older adults have received technological changes in incremental doses, while some children now receive it in a megadose.

It appears that neuroplasticity is a real phenomenon, so it likely affects everyone both those genetically inclined toward autistic traits and those not genetically inclined, changing the way humans process and perceive their environment.

I don't doubt that there are huge numbers of children with autistic traits, in silicon valley, that aren't counted among those with type 1 autism. Same story with most other autism statistics, for the most part, only those in special education classes get counted

I think the question that hasn't been answered is who fares better in a world of electronic devices, the autistic mind or the non-autistic mind.

Current research at Harvard hypothesizes that in general heavy usage of electronic media devices through neuroplasticity is reducing the ability for face to face social interaction, verbal communication skills, along with the ability for deep thought and patience. They don't say it is causing autism, but some of it sounds like the traits associated with autism.

There is no way to stop technology, the world depends on it now, it is required for subsistence. As always, those who adapt well will be more likely to survive and reproduce.

There aren't any autism related organizations that address the mechanics, nerds, geeks, that play their integral role in society, that I know of. I don't see what it is they could portray, that anyone would remember except for common professions that some are employed in.

Most people can't discern a person with Aspergers on the street, because there is not much to discern.

I would suggest that higher functioning autism is not portrayed because it is difficult to portray it in any significant objective way that sets those with it apart from the rest of the population.

What is portrayed is what can be portrayed as identifiable and signifcant, I think. It's easy to portray someone that can hardly communicate with others, with type 1 autism. But what is it about someone like Ari Nee'man that looks like a disorder when he speaks in front of an audience; his skills as a proficient speaker is what is noticed. His struggles are silent and not visible to others.

There aren't likely any autism organizations that are going to attempt to portray a highly proficient individual like this as having a disorder, or suggest they are trying to cure them, it would make no sense.

They are capable of portraying themselves in everyday life, as they choose, advocating for their own needs.

It seems like what has been done so far, is fairly reasonable, from what I can see as practical actions, among the different advocacy organizations.



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22 Dec 2011, 1:09 am

aghogday wrote:
I would suggest that higher functioning autism is not portrayed because it is difficult to portray it in any significant objective way that sets those with it apart from the rest of the population.


It's more like HFA (and Aspergers) don't hit the emotional sympathy button and bring out the donations like kids "who will never grow up and have jobs or families." Autism Speaks is all about hitting those emotional buttons of the general public.


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22 Dec 2011, 1:14 am

ictus75 wrote:
It's more like HFA (and Aspergers) don't hit the emotional sympathy button and bring out the donations like kids "who will never grow up and have jobs or families." Autism Speaks is all about hitting those emotional buttons of the general public.


Hmm, I have no job and family. I don't think it's just that.

I am also not sure that "high functioning autism" is totally invisible.



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22 Dec 2011, 6:39 am

Verdandi wrote:
ictus75 wrote:
It's more like HFA (and Aspergers) don't hit the emotional sympathy button and bring out the donations like kids "who will never grow up and have jobs or families." Autism Speaks is all about hitting those emotional buttons of the general public.


Hmm, I have no job and family. I don't think it's just that.

I am also not sure that "high functioning autism" is totally invisible.


It's not totally invisible, part of my sister's recent analysis and diagnosis of Aspergers was observance by the professional that diagnosed her over an eight week period that she didn't swing her arms when she walked, a sign of the clinical feature of motor coordination problems in Aspergers

One could show a young adult walking down the road not swinging their arms avoiding the gaze of others as a portrayal of aspergers, but it's not reflective of everyone that has aspergers, and refective of anyone that happens to have motor coordination issues and is rather shy.

I've thought about it, and am not sure how it can be effectively portrayed for awareness, in anything less than a documentary.



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24 Dec 2011, 1:17 am

Both the biological and cultural baselines are moving, some good some bad. In the fifties people like me were called Bookish, we read, odd behavior, and spoke like books.

Not playing with other children, having limited social interaction, was basically ignored. I did my school work, wore clothes, no one noticed.

Later I would have been put in special education, and still later, mainstreamed back.

The flaw of special education was isolation. I see that happening now, raising children isolated then wondering why they cannot involve themselves with the world. They have no idea what the world is.

I may have been the bystander, but I was there learning by osmosis.

While there has been more push to higher education, what I saw was after school, most never read a book. I continued, and the concept of lifetime learning, doing more than one thing for a living, was still in the future.

I got my first job in computers because I was a good motorcycle mechanic, and could read tech manuals. Both were self learned.

Youth did have it's problems, but developing my natural talents served me well later.

This is what worries me about Autism Speaks, the must cure idea, my own example of that was my handwriting, and spelling. Demands that I become something I was not ended my education at thirteen. While I was very good at all other subjects, I was tortured over handwriting, spelling, till everything fell apart. I lead my class in Math, Science, Reading Comprehension, but all they cared about was hand writing.

I walked away, withdrew, would have nothing to do with them. It was my only defense.

My fear is that ABA would produce the same results, withdrawing forever from some things, and never doing as I did, going my own way and developing my natural talents.

Since we are now talking about pre school age children, all development is at risk. The reaction I would expect, its what is shown as the worst of autistic children.

Constant demands that I do something I could not, lead to making a real mess of my life. School spilled over to home, and at thirteen I went out and got a job. My whole world had turned on me because of Cursive.

The simple answer for parents, teachers, school, was it was all my fault.

I barely escaped, younger children cannot, their only defense a meltdown.

ABA badly done could be responsable for a lot of the damage seen.

Just like my teachers who were going to make me write cursive if it killed me.

I still have a bad hand writing, the most I wrote was checks, but I did get a typewriter, then a computer, and have written several books. Now I use a debit card, scratch my name, and that is good enough for the world.

Like my Teachers, the Therapists are just doing what they are trained for and paid for. It must be the childrens fault.



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24 Dec 2011, 4:53 am

Inventor wrote:
Both the biological and cultural baselines are moving, some good some bad. In the fifties people like me were called Bookish, we read, odd behavior, and spoke like books.

Not playing with other children, having limited social interaction, was basically ignored. I did my school work, wore clothes, no one noticed.

Later I would have been put in special education, and still later, mainstreamed back.

The flaw of special education was isolation. I see that happening now, raising children isolated then wondering why they cannot involve themselves with the world. They have no idea what the world is.

I may have been the bystander, but I was there learning by osmosis.

While there has been more push to higher education, what I saw was after school, most never read a book. I continued, and the concept of lifetime learning, doing more than one thing for a living, was still in the future.

I got my first job in computers because I was a good motorcycle mechanic, and could read tech manuals. Both were self learned.

Youth did have it's problems, but developing my natural talents served me well later.

This is what worries me about Autism Speaks, the must cure idea, my own example of that was my handwriting, and spelling. Demands that I become something I was not ended my education at thirteen. While I was very good at all other subjects, I was tortured over handwriting, spelling, till everything fell apart. I lead my class in Math, Science, Reading Comprehension, but all they cared about was hand writing.

I walked away, withdrew, would have nothing to do with them. It was my only defense.

My fear is that ABA would produce the same results, withdrawing forever from some things, and never doing as I did, going my own way and developing my natural talents.

Since we are now talking about pre school age children, all development is at risk. The reaction I would expect, its what is shown as the worst of autistic children.

Constant demands that I do something I could not, lead to making a real mess of my life. School spilled over to home, and at thirteen I went out and got a job. My whole world had turned on me because of Cursive.

The simple answer for parents, teachers, school, was it was all my fault.

I barely escaped, younger children cannot, their only defense a meltdown.

ABA badly done could be responsable for a lot of the damage seen.

Just like my teachers who were going to make me write cursive if it killed me.

I still have a bad hand writing, the most I wrote was checks, but I did get a typewriter, then a computer, and have written several books. Now I use a debit card, scratch my name, and that is good enough for the world.

Like my Teachers, the Therapists are just doing what they are trained for and paid for. It must be the childrens fault.


Per that peer reviewed research sponsored by the government, I provided on ABA, there is only research that suggests ABA is effective in a subgroup of individuals with autism, and that evidence is not of the highest quality.

And, specifically, there is not enough significant research on potential harm, for a scientific opinion to be given on that aspect of the treatment, per that meta analysis of research that has been done, regarding ABA and Autism.

So your correct it could be of harm, but there is no significant evidence at this point in time that suggests it is of harm or not harm, just effective in some cases and not effective in others.

Emphasis in this area of research is needed.

I was lucky no one cared about my handwriting that has stayed at primary school level since primary school. I guess by the 60's the multiple choice test had become the standard over the writing part of reading, writing and arithmetics.

I got through three degrees without developing the ability to write an orginal paragraph, mostly because I couldn't tolerate writing, had no typewriter or computer. Got an electronic typewriter at age 28, and finally figured out how to come up with some kind of paragraph on my own without alot of paraphrasing.

Writing skills became required again in highschool, about the time I finished college. I was lucky, I guess. But, it would have been nice to learn how to right an orginal paragraph before age 28. Doubt I would have been close to the top 10, in the class though.

We live in a quick fix, cure culture, quick fixes for everything, a pill to get up, a pill to get down, a pill to stay awake, a pill to stay alive, and a pill to be happy, whatever that is.

Maybe the multiple choice test had something to do with this also, along with the development of "the pill" in 1960.

My mother never has had a prescription for anything, she is close to 80, but she was raised in the era, before the quick fix became popular.

There aren't any good long term studies for the harm of all of this either.

When one goes to the doctor, one may tell them they are under a bit of stress; a common answer, there is an anti-depressant for that. Interesting, modern ways to cope with stress.

Another sign of instant gratification.



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24 Dec 2011, 9:53 am

Stop bashing Autism Speaks?

Stop this thread!


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24 Dec 2011, 10:40 am

aghogday wrote:
...
So your correct it could be of harm, but there is no significant evidence at this point in time that suggests it is of harm or not harm, just effective in some cases and not effective in others.
You listen to Autism Speaks for anecdotal "evidence", but you've not listened to the anecdotes of ABA survivors, then?

aghogday wrote:
Emphasis in this area of research is needed. ...
Would it not be immoral to research a procedure that is recognised as harmful? (Even if that is only in some cases.)

Tuskegee springs to mind, along with all the autism cures.


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24 Dec 2011, 4:09 pm

lau wrote:
aghogday wrote:
...
So your correct it could be of harm, but there is no significant evidence at this point in time that suggests it is of harm or not harm, just effective in some cases and not effective in others.
You listen to Autism Speaks for anecdotal "evidence", but you've not listened to the anecdotes of ABA survivors, then?

aghogday wrote:
Emphasis in this area of research is needed. ...
Would it not be immoral to research a procedure that is recognised as harmful? (Even if that is only in some cases.)

Tuskegee springs to mind, along with all the autism cures.


Here is the full context of what I said:

Quote:
Per that peer reviewed research sponsored by the government, I provided on ABA, there is only research that suggests ABA is effective in a subgroup of individuals with autism, and that evidence is not of the highest quality.

And, specifically, there is not enough significant research on potential harm, for a scientific opinion to be given on that aspect of the treatment, per that meta analysis of research that has been done, regarding ABA and Autism.

So your correct it could be of harm, but there is no significant evidence at this point in time that suggests it is of harm or not harm, just effective in some cases and not effective in others.

Emphasis in this area of research is needed.


And here is the actual peer reviewed study linked below again, sponsored by the government that determined that ABA is effective in a subgroup of autistic individuals, that I was referring to. It has nothing to do with Autism Speaks. It is not anecdotal evidence, it is from actual studies analyzed.

And, again, there is not enough significant longitudinal research for a scientific finding of harm or no harm, per that study. So one can not rule out that potential, until appropriate research is done to determine this.

There is certainly nothing morally wrong with studying children on a longitudinal basis that have been treated with ABA, to see if there are potential negative impacts from the treatment, any more than there is for longitudinal studies on FDA approved drugs to determine the same thing.

This issue has nothing to do with the Tuskegee experiment. That study allowed individuals to go untreated, to see the impacts of a disease that was known to be harmful.

http://www.effectivehealthcare.ahrq.gov/ehc/products/106/656/CER26_Autism_Report_04-14-2011.pdf

I have listened to the reports of parents here on this site that have stated that it is has worked well for their children, and listened to the reports of others that don't agree with the effectiveness of the therapy.

And yes, I have listened to an actual report of an autistic adult that has been treated with ABA therapy, since childhood, that states it works for them, that is available on this internet site. This person however was diagnosed with Autism Disorder. I doubt many people with Aspergers here, have been subjected to the therapy.

If they have, I don't recollect anyone talking about it. Cognitive Behavioral therapy is a common behavioral therapy used for some individuals with Aspergers as well as the rest of the population.

Each parent has to make their own decision on it based on the available evidence. This is exactly why that study was sponsored by the government, so parents of autistic children would have objective evidence on the efficacy of treatments, to make a decision on which ones might be most beneficial to their child.

ABA therapy was the only therapy among many, concluded as effective, in that study.



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24 Dec 2011, 5:52 pm

aghogday wrote:
...
An ellipsis may be used to omit irrelevant text or skip tedious repetition, when it is necessary to make it clear that some text has been omitted.

I take it that you would campaign for more research into the benefits of corporal punishment in schools - and that you approved of the methods used at the Judge Rotenberg Educational Center, as the parents supported their use.

PS. I am pleased to see that
in the above article, Wikipedia wrote:
In November 2011, the JREC was legally prohibited from using aversives under new regulations adopted by the Massachusetts Department of Developmental Services.


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