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ASD folk should stick together like ethnic minorities

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Jiheisho
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10 Jan 2021, 8:19 pm

Fnord wrote:
Jiheisho wrote:
Fnord wrote:
bigNYC wrote:
KT67 wrote:
Unless you mean it in a purely capitalist way, autistic people are the most productive people I know!  Please get a specialist interest which isn't just browsing the net wallowing.
yeesh chill. so what is your better solution to our issues? We can't force NT to accept us, we have issues finding jobs, besides sticking together and supporting each other I honestly am stumped on how to solve this problem. But maybe I am missing something that you can give insight to :)
Instead of relying on others to make your life better for you, why not try self-improvement to make yourself more competitive in an open job market?
It amazes me how many people on WP don't get autism. There have been a whole host of studies on implicit bias against autistics. Reading Dale Carnegie is not going magically cure autism where you can win friends and influence people. NTS are too cagey for that. Sure, we can all learn and improve our mask. That only goes so far. Given the diversity of our tribe, there are only some of our tribe that might work well for.
Maybe it is just the personal pride talking, but I did it -- I made something of myself in spite of all the disadvantages I had.  Maybe if I had received my official diagnosis 45 years earlier, I too would have learned that I am "supposed" to be too handicapped to be able to do anything on my own.  As it is, I had to struggle much harder than most NTs who have their careers handed to them, and without knowing why I had to struggle.

Oh, and by the way ... I did not read any of Dale Carnegie's books until after I had made a successful life for myself.  If he was still alive, I could easily (and justifiably) point out exactly where he was wrong.


And you should be proud of your achievement. I too have done many things. I am constantly trying to grow and improve. But my ASD diagnosis helped me identify why certain things are so hard for me. But I also recognize that my experience is not the same as others here. I have seen members struggling with many challenges. I just think if we are going to advocate for autists, we need to be advocating for us all.



bigNYC
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10 Jan 2021, 8:20 pm

Mountain Goat wrote:
bigNYC wrote:
Mountain Goat wrote:
If there is a group I want to go in and then come out. Go in when I need to but come out and be myself.
When I have been in a work enviroment, I have always gone in, done my job and gone home. I will attend the odd work oriented event outside work, but only when I have to. I rarely ever attended parties.

It is not that I would not want to meet others. I do. It is more that I have always done better in very small one to one groups of just a few people and I have always tried to aboid large gatherings inside buildings. I have done it on many occasions but it is not something I can relax in. I am "On edge" and "Tense" in gatherings which takes a lot out of me, so I will usually say no unless it is something important or I can relax in because it is a smaller group where I know what will be happening so I know what to expect.


question are you only tense around NT gatherings? i mean an Eskimo would be pretty "tense" around a gathering of Albanians lol. In all seriousness people tend to "vibe" well with those they can relate to due to similar experiences/and/or culture/similar challenges they face etc.


Uhmm. Well. The largest gatherings I have been to in recent years are either model railway exhibitions or model railway related sales fairs or the odd church gathering in a converted barn. I would have to nip outside with the church gathering if it got a bit much. The model railway exhibitions were ok if they were not too big. The larger ones I would start to panic more in because I was further asay from the door with too mny people in the way. Foe some eason I need to be near a door, which goes back to my collage days where a whole class of pupils suddenly turned against me without warning and blocked my exit out the door. I was around 18 at the time and I have always had issues since. It is ok if everyone is sitting down and I have a clear exit. I am finding I can't do queues in shops due to this if the layout is such that I can get hemmed in from behind, which is far more likely due to covid one way systems so many shops I tend to need to avoid.


That is our problem we ONLY hang out/support each other when we are doing weird hobbies which repel people. (TRUST me I have weird hobbies too but at SOME point I must PRETEND to conform if I don't want to die alone). Take my black/puerto rican example. do blacks/puerto ricans/dominicans like me who face discrimination hide alone in their rooms on the computer and only come out to go to MLK day/Puerto Rico day parade? NO! we stick together and protect themselves and unionize to deal with our challenges!

lets do the same or "help a brotha out" as those communities say



bigNYC
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10 Jan 2021, 8:20 pm

Jiheisho wrote:
Fnord wrote:
Jiheisho wrote:
Fnord wrote:
bigNYC wrote:
KT67 wrote:
Unless you mean it in a purely capitalist way, autistic people are the most productive people I know!  Please get a specialist interest which isn't just browsing the net wallowing.
yeesh chill. so what is your better solution to our issues? We can't force NT to accept us, we have issues finding jobs, besides sticking together and supporting each other I honestly am stumped on how to solve this problem. But maybe I am missing something that you can give insight to :)
Instead of relying on others to make your life better for you, why not try self-improvement to make yourself more competitive in an open job market?
It amazes me how many people on WP don't get autism. There have been a whole host of studies on implicit bias against autistics. Reading Dale Carnegie is not going magically cure autism where you can win friends and influence people. NTS are too cagey for that. Sure, we can all learn and improve our mask. That only goes so far. Given the diversity of our tribe, there are only some of our tribe that might work well for.
Maybe it is just the personal pride talking, but I did it -- I made something of myself in spite of all the disadvantages I had.  Maybe if I had received my official diagnosis 45 years earlier, I too would have learned that I am "supposed" to be too handicapped to be able to do anything on my own.  As it is, I had to struggle much harder than most NTs who have their careers handed to them, and without knowing why I had to struggle.

Oh, and by the way ... I did not read any of Dale Carnegie's books until after I had made a successful life for myself.  If he was still alive, I could easily (and justifiably) point out exactly where he was wrong.


And you should be proud of your achievement. I too have done many things. I am constantly trying to grow and improve. But my ASD diagnosis helped me identify why certain things are so hard for me. But I also recognize that my experience is not the same as others here. I have seen members struggling with many challenges. I just think if we are going to advocate for autists, we need to be advocating for us all.


amen at least you are with me :)



Bravo5150
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10 Jan 2021, 8:24 pm

bigNYC wrote:
Mountain Goat wrote:
bigNYC wrote:
Mountain Goat wrote:
If there is a group I want to go in and then come out. Go in when I need to but come out and be myself.
When I have been in a work enviroment, I have always gone in, done my job and gone home. I will attend the odd work oriented event outside work, but only when I have to. I rarely ever attended parties.

It is not that I would not want to meet others. I do. It is more that I have always done better in very small one to one groups of just a few people and I have always tried to aboid large gatherings inside buildings. I have done it on many occasions but it is not something I can relax in. I am "On edge" and "Tense" in gatherings which takes a lot out of me, so I will usually say no unless it is something important or I can relax in because it is a smaller group where I know what will be happening so I know what to expect.


question are you only tense around NT gatherings? i mean an Eskimo would be pretty "tense" around a gathering of Albanians lol. In all seriousness people tend to "vibe" well with those they can relate to due to similar experiences/and/or culture/similar challenges they face etc.


Uhmm. Well. The largest gatherings I have been to in recent years are either model railway exhibitions or model railway related sales fairs or the odd church gathering in a converted barn. I would have to nip outside with the church gathering if it got a bit much. The model railway exhibitions were ok if they were not too big. The larger ones I would start to panic more in because I was further asay from the door with too mny people in the way. Foe some eason I need to be near a door, which goes back to my collage days where a whole class of pupils suddenly turned against me without warning and blocked my exit out the door. I was around 18 at the time and I have always had issues since. It is ok if everyone is sitting down and I have a clear exit. I am finding I can't do queues in shops due to this if the layout is such that I can get hemmed in from behind, which is far more likely due to covid one way systems so many shops I tend to need to avoid.


That is our problem we ONLY hang out/support each other when we are doing weird hobbies which repel people. (TRUST me I have weird hobbies too but at SOME point I must PRETEND to conform if I don't want to die alone). Take my black/puerto rican example. do blacks/puerto ricans/dominicans like me who face discrimination hide alone in their rooms on the computer and only come out to go to MLK day/Puerto Rico day parade? NO! we stick together and protect themselves and unionize to deal with our challenges!

lets do the same or "help a brotha out" as those communities say


What ideas do you have on how to advocate do you have? So far I have only heard you say let's form a tribe and your only skill is agriculture. What actually workable ideas do you have for how to advocate do you have?



bigNYC
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10 Jan 2021, 8:40 pm

Bravo5150 wrote:
bigNYC wrote:
Mountain Goat wrote:
bigNYC wrote:
Mountain Goat wrote:
If there is a group I want to go in and then come out. Go in when I need to but come out and be myself.
When I have been in a work enviroment, I have always gone in, done my job and gone home. I will attend the odd work oriented event outside work, but only when I have to. I rarely ever attended parties.

It is not that I would not want to meet others. I do. It is more that I have always done better in very small one to one groups of just a few people and I have always tried to aboid large gatherings inside buildings. I have done it on many occasions but it is not something I can relax in. I am "On edge" and "Tense" in gatherings which takes a lot out of me, so I will usually say no unless it is something important or I can relax in because it is a smaller group where I know what will be happening so I know what to expect.


question are you only tense around NT gatherings? i mean an Eskimo would be pretty "tense" around a gathering of Albanians lol. In all seriousness people tend to "vibe" well with those they can relate to due to similar experiences/and/or culture/similar challenges they face etc.


Uhmm. Well. The largest gatherings I have been to in recent years are either model railway exhibitions or model railway related sales fairs or the odd church gathering in a converted barn. I would have to nip outside with the church gathering if it got a bit much. The model railway exhibitions were ok if they were not too big. The larger ones I would start to panic more in because I was further asay from the door with too mny people in the way. Foe some eason I need to be near a door, which goes back to my collage days where a whole class of pupils suddenly turned against me without warning and blocked my exit out the door. I was around 18 at the time and I have always had issues since. It is ok if everyone is sitting down and I have a clear exit. I am finding I can't do queues in shops due to this if the layout is such that I can get hemmed in from behind, which is far more likely due to covid one way systems so many shops I tend to need to avoid.


That is our problem we ONLY hang out/support each other when we are doing weird hobbies which repel people. (TRUST me I have weird hobbies too but at SOME point I must PRETEND to conform if I don't want to die alone). Take my black/puerto rican example. do blacks/puerto ricans/dominicans like me who face discrimination hide alone in their rooms on the computer and only come out to go to MLK day/Puerto Rico day parade? NO! we stick together and protect themselves and unionize to deal with our challenges!

lets do the same or "help a brotha out" as those communities say


What ideas do you have on how to advocate do you have? So far I have only heard you say let's form a tribe and your only skill is agriculture. What actually workable ideas do you have for how to advocate do you have?


I'll give mine but what are your ideas besides go to obscure hobby gatherings that socially repel others? We are too isolated! You don't have to like me but science says social isolation LITERALLY kills (it shortens lifespans) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_isolation (Besides if you did not know this agriculture is not throwing seeds into the ground, their are literally college DEGREES designated to agriculture study).



Bravo5150
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10 Jan 2021, 8:46 pm

bigNYC wrote:
Bravo5150 wrote:
bigNYC wrote:
Mountain Goat wrote:
bigNYC wrote:
Mountain Goat wrote:
If there is a group I want to go in and then come out. Go in when I need to but come out and be myself.
When I have been in a work enviroment, I have always gone in, done my job and gone home. I will attend the odd work oriented event outside work, but only when I have to. I rarely ever attended parties.

It is not that I would not want to meet others. I do. It is more that I have always done better in very small one to one groups of just a few people and I have always tried to aboid large gatherings inside buildings. I have done it on many occasions but it is not something I can relax in. I am "On edge" and "Tense" in gatherings which takes a lot out of me, so I will usually say no unless it is something important or I can relax in because it is a smaller group where I know what will be happening so I know what to expect.


question are you only tense around NT gatherings? i mean an Eskimo would be pretty "tense" around a gathering of Albanians lol. In all seriousness people tend to "vibe" well with those they can relate to due to similar experiences/and/or culture/similar challenges they face etc.


Uhmm. Well. The largest gatherings I have been to in recent years are either model railway exhibitions or model railway related sales fairs or the odd church gathering in a converted barn. I would have to nip outside with the church gathering if it got a bit much. The model railway exhibitions were ok if they were not too big. The larger ones I would start to panic more in because I was further asay from the door with too mny people in the way. Foe some eason I need to be near a door, which goes back to my collage days where a whole class of pupils suddenly turned against me without warning and blocked my exit out the door. I was around 18 at the time and I have always had issues since. It is ok if everyone is sitting down and I have a clear exit. I am finding I can't do queues in shops due to this if the layout is such that I can get hemmed in from behind, which is far more likely due to covid one way systems so many shops I tend to need to avoid.


That is our problem we ONLY hang out/support each other when we are doing weird hobbies which repel people. (TRUST me I have weird hobbies too but at SOME point I must PRETEND to conform if I don't want to die alone). Take my black/puerto rican example. do blacks/puerto ricans/dominicans like me who face discrimination hide alone in their rooms on the computer and only come out to go to MLK day/Puerto Rico day parade? NO! we stick together and protect themselves and unionize to deal with our challenges!

lets do the same or "help a brotha out" as those communities say


What ideas do you have on how to advocate do you have? So far I have only heard you say let's form a tribe and your only skill is agriculture. What actually workable ideas do you have for how to advocate do you have?


I'll give mine but what are your ideas besides go to obscure hobby gatherings that socially repel others? We are too isolated! You don't have to like me but science says social isolation LITERALLY kills (it shortens lifespans) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_isolation (Besides if you did not know this agriculture is not throwing seeds into the ground, their are literally college DEGREES designated to agriculture study).


You didn't answer my question, how does agriculture tie into advocacy is what I asked. I didn't say it was completely useless, but how does it apply to advancing civil rights?

You also neglect to take into account stress shortens your lifespan and many people are stressed out by social gatherings.



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10 Jan 2021, 9:02 pm

bigNYC wrote:
We Blacks and Hispanics stick together to protect ourselves. (I am Dominican from NYC and the Latin Kings gang BEFORE it got corrupted with crime was a way for Dominicans/Latinos/Blacks to stick stick together to fight discrimination in NYC/Chicago. NOT ADVOCATING that we should form criminal gangs! Rather we should form LEGAL gangs. What I also like is how the black/hispanic community also call each other “brother” and “sister” this is a WONDERFUL tradition that I think we should copy. We don’t have to be united by “race” (since some of us have been bullied by our respective "races", but by our challenges. Many of us have no friends and face social/job discrimination However most friendships are formed through similarities and being able to relate to each other. Our challenges is one commonality we have. Plus no one will pick on us due to us being a collective unit. (in the olden days blacks/Hispanics were picked on but NOT ANYMORE due to operating as a collective unit and striking FEAR into racists through legal/social reforms and by larger numbers.

-discuss

I agree, but building such a community will be a long process. I would be very interested in your comments on my Longterm visions for the autistic community.


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10 Jan 2021, 9:09 pm

Mona Pereth wrote:
bigNYC wrote:
We Blacks and Hispanics stick together to protect ourselves. (I am Dominican from NYC and the Latin Kings gang BEFORE it got corrupted with crime was a way for Dominicans/Latinos/Blacks to stick stick together to fight discrimination in NYC/Chicago. NOT ADVOCATING that we should form criminal gangs! Rather we should form LEGAL gangs. What I also like is how the black/hispanic community also call each other “brother” and “sister” this is a WONDERFUL tradition that I think we should copy. We don’t have to be united by “race” (since some of us have been bullied by our respective "races", but by our challenges. Many of us have no friends and face social/job discrimination However most friendships are formed through similarities and being able to relate to each other. Our challenges is one commonality we have. Plus no one will pick on us due to us being a collective unit. (in the olden days blacks/Hispanics were picked on but NOT ANYMORE due to operating as a collective unit and striking FEAR into racists through legal/social reforms and by larger numbers.

-discuss

I agree, but building such a community will be a long process. I would be very interested in your comments on my Longterm visions for the autistic community.


its a good idea but we need to think bottom up. I am 100% in support of your idea but we need to start small :) is their a way we can professional network on this site? or do meet ups depending on a certain area? and then move/adjust based on where "our people" are. Look a when a Korean person immigrates to the U.S they do not move to Sticksville, Alabama in a culture where folks have different life experiences/foods/holidays, rather they move to Koreatown in Los Angeles California with like-minded people.

why don't we do the same? we move where the other ASD are!



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10 Jan 2021, 9:18 pm

Jiheisho wrote:
And you should be proud of your achievement.  I too have done many things. I am constantly trying to grow and improve.  But my ASD diagnosis helped me identify why certain things are so hard for me.  But I also recognize that my experience is not the same as others here.  I have seen members struggling with many challenges.  I just think if we are going to advocate for autists, we need to be advocating for us all.
How do you propose (for example) that I advocate for you?  For that matter, how do you propose to advocate for those of us whose situations are intractable?  For instance, there are members on this website whose situation is so bad that all they can talk about is how miserable they are, and that the only things that can be done for them is to say kind words to them and hope they don't commit suicide.  How can "we" advocate for those who have given up on themselves and life in general?


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10 Jan 2021, 9:20 pm

bigNYC wrote:
its a good idea but we need to think bottom up. I am 100% in support of your idea but we need to start small :)

Agreed. That's why I said it would be a long process.

bigNYC wrote:
is their a way we can professional network on this site? or do meet ups depending on a certain area?

Please see my private message to you.

I have a small local group that is currently meeting online due to the COVID crisis but met monthly in person before the COVID crisis and will hopefully meet in person again after at least one of the vaccines becomes widely available. There are also some other groups in the NYC area.


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10 Jan 2021, 9:24 pm

bigNYC wrote:
... is their a way we can professional network on this site?
That would require peer-to-peer support by profession, and for every member to declare his or her profession as well.
bigNYC wrote:
... when a Korean person immigrates to the U.S they do not move to Sticksville, Alabama in a culture where folks have different life experiences/foods/holidays, rather they move to Koreatown in Los Angeles California with like-minded people.  why don't we do the same? we move where the other ASD are!
You live on the east coast, and I live on the west.  You are a farmer, and I am an EE.  Are you proposing that I move to New Your and take up farming?  Or are you proposing to move to Los Angeles and take up systems analysis and design?  And who would pay for all of that?


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10 Jan 2021, 11:18 pm

I love the idea of ASD folk sticking together, but it's not going to work in the physical sense, those few of us interested in the idea would be too thin in the ground. Banding together through the internet would be more realistic.

What I've noticed on WP though is that we tend to be highly individual in our views and pull in different directions. Also somewhat immune to groupthink. I can't see us rising up as one after getting fired up by a stirring speech, for example. Autists don't seem to be like that, which makes it hard to act cohesively.

Even so, many of us do have some shared concerns and I think there is scope for advocating for each other through internet groups.



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10 Jan 2021, 11:52 pm

MrsPeel wrote:
I love the idea of ASD folk sticking together, but it's not going to work in the physical sense, those few of us interested in the idea would be too thin in the ground. Banding together through the internet would be more realistic.

What I've noticed on WP though is that we tend to be highly individual in our views and pull in different directions. Also somewhat immune to groupthink. I can't see us rising up as one after getting fired up by a stirring speech, for example. Autists don't seem to be like that, which makes it hard to act cohesively.

Even so, many of us do have some shared concerns and I think there is scope for advocating for each other through internet groups.


No we SHOULD band together in the physical sense one day. we spend FAAAR too much time on the internet. Real life goes on OUTSIDE of the internet.

We can't be individualistic. All major human achievments like the Great Wall of China, The Hoover Damn, etc. were done COLLECTIVELY.

When immigrants came to america and did not fit in (kinda like how we are "immigrants" to NT society) they did not hide and rot away in their rooms they worked COLLECTIVELY not individually to thrive.

Sure WP wants to be individualistic however, science disagrees https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_isolation#Effects



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11 Jan 2021, 12:25 am

bigNYC wrote:
is their a way we can professional network on this site? or do meet ups depending on a certain area? and then move/adjust based on where "our people" are. Look a when a Korean person immigrates to the U.S they do not move to Sticksville, Alabama in a culture where folks have different life experiences/foods/holidays, rather they move to Koreatown in Los Angeles California with like-minded people.

why don't we do the same? we move where the other ASD are!

Many of us cannot afford to move. In any case, there are autistic people everywhere.

What we need is to build more and more local groups of various kinds, in more and more places. Non-local forums like Wrong Planet have an important place in the community too, but they are not enough.

You and I can focus on the NYC area. I hope we can work together, given your enthusiasm for autistic peer community-building. To whatever extent we succeed, hopefully we can then set an example for autistic people in other locales.


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Last edited by Mona Pereth on 11 Jan 2021, 12:43 am, edited 1 time in total.

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11 Jan 2021, 12:42 am

bigNYC wrote:
No we SHOULD band together in the physical sense one day. we spend FAAAR too much time on the internet. Real life goes on OUTSIDE of the internet.

We need both. I agree with you that we need more real-life meetings, at least once the COVID crisis has been dealt with. In the meantime, we need locale-based online chats as well as non-local online forums like Wrong Planet.

bigNYC wrote:
We can't be individualistic. All major human achievments like the Great Wall of China, The Hoover Damn, etc. were done COLLECTIVELY.

When immigrants came to america and did not fit in (kinda like how we are "immigrants" to NT society) they did not hide and rot away in their rooms they worked COLLECTIVELY not individually to thrive.

Actually, most immigrant groups thrive through a mix of individualism and collectivism. Banding together is important, but individual achievement (working hard in school, launching and maintaining small businesses, etc.) is important also, and the two complement each other.

But I agree with you that autistic people need much more of a sense of community than most of us have now. To that end, we need to build a wider variety of groups that a wider variety autistic people will want to attend, and those of us who want to build them need to develop leadership skills. (See also Autistic-friendly social skills vs. blending in with NT's.)


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11 Jan 2021, 4:44 am

For someone who doesn't like licking NT boot you sure as f**k don't understand that those kinds of studies are done on NTs.

Autistic people are self contained.

It's not my fault if your family don't love you enough to be enough for you.

Enjoy the super spreader events you're planning.


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