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Should eradicating Austism be considered a hate crime?
yes 51%  51%  [ 65 ]
no 19%  19%  [ 24 ]
maybe, given the right circumstances 23%  23%  [ 30 ]
I don't know 7%  7%  [ 9 ]
Total votes : 128

lau
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11 Mar 2008, 3:04 pm

orangered wrote:
lau wrote:
orangered wrote:
Aranittara wrote:
Essentially I don't want us to be eliminated as a group and I want to maintain a choice for myself and my children not to take the cure.

Well, I do not identify myself with any group. Sorry for disappointing those who feel otherwise.

In that case you would be happy with a cure for maleness? This is also genetic. It is a well know fact that males are more <insert adjective of choice here> than females. They should obviously be cured. You would not identify yourself with this group?

Certainly I do have traits common to other people. Yet I have never got an idea I belong to a worldwide group of males.
Some males apparently feel members of such a group and try to be (or at least appear) as masculine as possible. Not my case.

Yes, in your case, you do belong to the group of males, unless you have not entered your gender correctly.

orangered wrote:
I have never said someone should be cured against his/her wish, I am concerned about individuals.
You probably did not meant it literally with a cure for maleness, but in case you did, I am not against the possibility to change gender and I am not against anyone who chooses to do so.

I did not suggest that I was speaking of changing gender... just curing maleness. One cure is quite simple: death. This has happened a few times already - with cures for autism - the autist died.

orangered wrote:
As for disappering groups, let's try this example:
You imply AS is purely genetic. Let's say it is. Then, given difficulties with mating AS people experience in average,
it is probable that evolution does not favor AS people. And I still sleep well. Hope I made myself clear.

I believe you confuse breeding with evolution. It is obvious autism is, if anything, favoured by evolution. Certainly, if you believe in the fable of a dire upsurge in autism.

If few autists breed, but there are more (or even the same proportion) of autists in the world, either the autistic genes are dominant or non-autists are badly disadvantaged.


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LeKiwi
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11 Mar 2008, 4:52 pm

morning_after wrote:
LeKiwi wrote:
It depends on whether eradicating autism means eradicating autistic people or not. If it means alleviating those who are genuinely suffering and would like to be cured, then no, it isn't a hate crime at all. If it means killing everyone on the spectrum, then yes of course it would be genocide, or something akin to it. But it isn't that black and white.


But, unfortuneatly, eradicating it would mean killing some of us that are on the spectrum, or at least a forced cure.


What about those of us who want a cure? Or those of us whose autism was induced early in life, for example by vaccines or environmental toxins? No two autistics are made the same, we're all still individuals...


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morning_after
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11 Mar 2008, 5:13 pm

LeKiwi wrote:
morning_after wrote:
LeKiwi wrote:
It depends on whether eradicating autism means eradicating autistic people or not. If it means alleviating those who are genuinely suffering and would like to be cured, then no, it isn't a hate crime at all. If it means killing everyone on the spectrum, then yes of course it would be genocide, or something akin to it. But it isn't that black and white.


But, unfortuneatly, eradicating it would mean killing some of us that are on the spectrum, or at least a forced cure.


What about those of us who want a cure? Or those of us whose autism was induced early in life, for example by vaccines or environmental toxins? No two autistics are made the same, we're all still individuals...


If you want a cure, then seek one. But what about those of us that don't? I honestly think that, as things are right now, the rest of us would be pressured to be cured, too, at the very least.



LeKiwi
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11 Mar 2008, 5:17 pm

Then that would be wrong. I don't personally want to be cured as it doesn't hold me back from anything, but I can totally understand why those who DO want to be cured of it want to be cured, and I don't think anyone should be stopping them from getting that help they so desire. This 'thing' is easier for some of us than others. For example, I'm lucky, I don't suffer any of the digestive co-morbids others do... so how can I tell someone who does that they should just put up with it so that the rest of us can have our way and not have this cure found for fear of a modern-day genocide?


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orangered
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11 Mar 2008, 5:22 pm

lau wrote:
orangered wrote:
lau wrote:
orangered wrote:
Aranittara wrote:
Essentially I don't want us to be eliminated as a group and I want to maintain a choice for myself and my children not to take the cure.

Well, I do not identify myself with any group. Sorry for disappointing those who feel otherwise.

In that case you would be happy with a cure for maleness? This is also genetic. It is a well know fact that males are more <insert adjective of choice here> than females. They should obviously be cured. You would not identify yourself with this group?

Certainly I do have traits common to other people. Yet I have never got an idea I belong to a worldwide group of males.
Some males apparently feel members of such a group and try to be (or at least appear) as masculine as possible. Not my case.

Yes, in your case, you do belong to the group of males, unless you have not entered your gender correctly.

I am misunderstood. Does word ingroup make more sense?

What I had in mind originally was an impression, that some people (not necessarily Aranittara) think in a nationalists-like mindset
that it is group what matters, not individuals. Then it naturally comes that curing autistic people
equals kidnapping group members and is always wrong (for the group), no matter what given individual thinks and feels.
If I got this impression mistakenly, the better.

lau wrote:
I believe you confuse breeding with evolution. It is obvious autism is, if anything, favoured by evolution. Certainly, if you believe in the fable of a dire upsurge in autism.

If few autists breed, but there are more (or even the same proportion) of autists in the world, either the autistic genes are dominant or non-autists are badly disadvantaged.

I do not believe proportion of autists is rising. I can think of more possible causes of autism, but I do not wat to discuss them because they are just that - possibilities.



CockneyRebel
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12 Mar 2008, 6:56 pm

I think that it should be classified as a hate crime.


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TLPG
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13 Mar 2008, 4:37 pm

LeKiwi wrote:
Then that would be wrong. I don't personally want to be cured as it doesn't hold me back from anything, but I can totally understand why those who DO want to be cured of it want to be cured, and I don't think anyone should be stopping them from getting that help they so desire. This 'thing' is easier for some of us than others. For example, I'm lucky, I don't suffer any of the digestive co-morbids others do... so how can I tell someone who does that they should just put up with it so that the rest of us can have our way and not have this cure found for fear of a modern-day genocide?


This is a guarentee, Le Kiwi. The cure will be forced. The reason is because of the cost to fit the needs of ASD's into government planning and so forth. They'll welcome and force the "out", and the NT world will support it.

Of course it's a moot point, because there isn't a cure.



morning_after
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13 Mar 2008, 10:21 pm

CockneyRebel wrote:
I think that it should be classified as a hate crime.


I do, too, but, if you don't mind me asking, what are your reasons?



morning_after
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13 Mar 2008, 10:24 pm

TLPG wrote:
LeKiwi wrote:
Then that would be wrong. I don't personally want to be cured as it doesn't hold me back from anything, but I can totally understand why those who DO want to be cured of it want to be cured, and I don't think anyone should be stopping them from getting that help they so desire. This 'thing' is easier for some of us than others. For example, I'm lucky, I don't suffer any of the digestive co-morbids others do... so how can I tell someone who does that they should just put up with it so that the rest of us can have our way and not have this cure found for fear of a modern-day genocide?


This is a guarentee, Le Kiwi. The cure will be forced. The reason is because of the cost to fit the needs of ASD's into government planning and so forth. They'll welcome and force the "out", and the NT world will support it.

Of course it's a moot point, because there isn't a cure.


Assuming that they don't try to stop it at a pre-natal level.



Orwell
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14 Mar 2008, 12:49 am

morning_after wrote:
Assuming that they don't try to stop it at a pre-natal level.

That's what I'm most worried about.


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LeKiwi
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14 Mar 2008, 6:41 am

TLPG wrote:
LeKiwi wrote:
Then that would be wrong. I don't personally want to be cured as it doesn't hold me back from anything, but I can totally understand why those who DO want to be cured of it want to be cured, and I don't think anyone should be stopping them from getting that help they so desire. This 'thing' is easier for some of us than others. For example, I'm lucky, I don't suffer any of the digestive co-morbids others do... so how can I tell someone who does that they should just put up with it so that the rest of us can have our way and not have this cure found for fear of a modern-day genocide?


This is a guarentee, Le Kiwi. The cure will be forced. The reason is because of the cost to fit the needs of ASD's into government planning and so forth. They'll welcome and force the "out", and the NT world will support it.

Of course it's a moot point, because there isn't a cure.


There's always a way around it. When it gets down to it, everyone with autism is someone's daughter or son, or (when at the fetal stage) a part of a woman's body. You'd just have to hope the parents won't stand for someone forcing something on their child, or that they won't allow a forced abortion... some people are sick and you can't do much about those ones anyway, but there will always be those who would do anything to protect their children. I think in this case the parents would just have to stand up for their children, and we'd have to hope they do it.


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TLPG
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14 Mar 2008, 5:27 pm

Won't happen, Le Kiwi. The public pressure will be too much. The parents will have to hide the children - and how can you do that nowadays? They'll get charged with child abuse and bang goes their defence.

Anyway - there is also the pre-natal situation as observed above.



morning_after
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14 Mar 2008, 8:32 pm

And you also have people like the vice-president of Autism Speaks, who blatently posted a video where she said, without remorse, that she would have murdered her autistic child if not for the fact that the girl had a sibling.



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14 Mar 2008, 9:07 pm

I'd do anything to protect my child. They can threaten me all they like; they will not be prodding him or her with their toxic trash and they will NOT be doing anything to medicalise them without my say so. Not that I have kids yet, but give it a few years...

I'm training as a naturopathic doctor so hopefully I'll be able to find out the legalities of what you can and can't do to protect your child from that kind of thing within the boundaries of the law. I'm sure someone will know!!


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15 Mar 2008, 7:36 pm

LeKiwi wrote:
I'd do anything to protect my child. They can threaten me all they like; they will not be prodding him or her with their toxic trash and they will NOT be doing anything to medicalise them without my say so. Not that I have kids yet, but give it a few years...

I'm training as a naturopathic doctor so hopefully I'll be able to find out the legalities of what you can and can't do to protect your child from that kind of thing within the boundaries of the law. I'm sure someone will know!!


Your words are air. Until, of course, you actually have a child of your own... You've no real idea what you will and will not do for or to your child. None, whatsoever.



LeKiwi
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15 Mar 2008, 8:22 pm

... I didn't say I hadn't had experience with children. Like helping raise my young brother. Assumptions, assumptions. Don't be so patronising - I'm not a child.

And I do have a fair idea. I would do anything for my children. And one of those definite things is not vaccinating him/her. I've already discussed this with my partner and we've agreed on it that it's how we want to do things; same goes for me not getting any of those ones they're now trying to force onto pregnant women such as the flu jab, or the HPV one I've been called up about 6 times now.


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