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gina-ghettoprincess
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06 Feb 2009, 6:20 am

Marcia wrote:
dalekaspie wrote:
its like the holocaust all over again


In what way, exactly?


It is discrimination.


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Marcia
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06 Feb 2009, 11:10 am

Discrimination of various types is experienced by many different individuals and groups, is unfair, and to be opposed and countered, but it is in no way equivalent or comparable to the Holocaust.



Morgana
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06 Feb 2009, 5:48 pm

Marcia wrote:
Discrimination of various types is experienced by many different individuals and groups, is unfair, and to be opposed and countered, but it is in no way equivalent or comparable to the Holocaust.


Well, if it involves killing, it is comparable. "Discrimination" is bad enough, but when we´re talking about the possible eradication of all autistic people, this takes the whole idea one step further.


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dalekaspie
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07 Feb 2009, 5:13 am

Marcia wrote:
dalekaspie wrote:
its like the holocaust all over again


In what way, exactly?


theyre killing people with autism!



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07 Feb 2009, 10:44 am

Morgana wrote:
Marcia wrote:
Discrimination of various types is experienced by many different individuals and groups, is unfair, and to be opposed and countered, but it is in no way equivalent or comparable to the Holocaust.


Well, if it involves killing, it is comparable. "Discrimination" is bad enough, but when we´re talking about the possible eradication of all autistic people, this takes the whole idea one step further.


Exactly!

Bloody Nazi scientists.



Abu_Zarqawi
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07 Feb 2009, 12:18 pm

Kangoogle wrote:
Clearly.

and why is that so clear? if we suppose for a moment that the sheep/shepherd theory is correct what rational basis do you have to assume that you are not a sheep? statistically its alot more likely that you are
dalekaspie wrote:
Marcia wrote:
dalekaspie wrote:
its like the holocaust all over again


In what way, exactly?


theyre killing people with autism!
embryos aren't people and abortion isn't killing.



Kangoogle
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07 Feb 2009, 12:28 pm

Abu_Zarqawi wrote:
Kangoogle wrote:
Clearly.

and why is that so clear? if we suppose for a moment that the sheep/shepherd theory is correct what rational basis do you have to assume that you are not a sheep? statistically its alot more likely that you are

Because I actually elect to think for myself, perhaps?



Abu_Zarqawi
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07 Feb 2009, 1:05 pm

Kangoogle wrote:
Abu_Zarqawi wrote:
Kangoogle wrote:
Clearly.

and why is that so clear? if we suppose for a moment that the sheep/shepherd theory is correct what rational basis do you have to assume that you are not a sheep? statistically its alot more likely that you are

Because I actually elect to think for myself, perhaps?
how does your saying that actually prove anything? wouldn't it be in the interest of the would-be shepherds to make people believe that they think for themselves while actually in large part being influenced by the dominant cultural climate, which you obviously are given your cynicism and lack of trust in other human beings?



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07 Feb 2009, 1:25 pm

Abu_Zarqawi wrote:
Kangoogle wrote:
Abu_Zarqawi wrote:
Kangoogle wrote:
Clearly.

and why is that so clear? if we suppose for a moment that the sheep/shepherd theory is correct what rational basis do you have to assume that you are not a sheep? statistically its alot more likely that you are

Because I actually elect to think for myself, perhaps?
how does your saying that actually prove anything? wouldn't it be in the interest of the would-be shepherds to make people believe that they think for themselves while actually in large part being influenced by the dominant cultural climate, which you obviously are given your cynicism and lack of trust in other human beings?

Go and read a few books of manufacturing consent - there is plenty of evidence that the average citizen is subservient to society and the media which perpetuate it. Might also be worth looking up political obligation whilst you are at it.



Abu_Zarqawi
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07 Feb 2009, 1:35 pm

nice namedropping but holding a cynical worldview you are in every way being subservient to the dominant social climate, because its in the interest of those in power to have people pursuing nothing but their self-interest



Kangoogle
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07 Feb 2009, 1:53 pm

Abu_Zarqawi wrote:
nice namedropping but holding a cynical worldview you are in every way being subservient to the dominant social climate, because its in the interest of those in power to have people pursuing nothing but their self-interest

I would not say I was a cynic per se, more like a realist.



gina-ghettoprincess
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07 Feb 2009, 4:57 pm

Abu_Zarqawi, if you doubt that people would use such a technology to weed out autie embryos, then take a look at the vaccine situation. Ignorant people in general would rather their child's life was in danger than their child become autistic, despite no proper link between autism and vaccines being found. So it only follows that screening for autism would bring about the beginnings of a Gattaca-like society. You can't deny it, as the above is evidence to that effect.


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07 Feb 2009, 7:36 pm

I live in Scotland, where, in the third quarter of last year 95% of young children received their MMR jag. That means we have achieved the level of uptake deemed necessary for herd immunity.

Uptake did dip to a low of around 80% after Andrew Wakefield claimed to have found a link with autism, however, it seems that parents are again having their children vaccinated, it having been demonstrated repeatedly that there is no link.

I also think that in this country there is an acceptance that the actions we take, or don't take, as individuals have an impact on the wider society in which we live. People here are concerned about the risks posed to others by a refusal to have a child given the MMR.



Americanaspergers
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12 Feb 2009, 11:20 pm

I signed. How dare they?!?! What, so let's KILL OFF AUTISM.. NICE :roll: I have A.S. and I do not think I am better off dead. I hope this does not get passed!



Stijn
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13 Feb 2009, 3:52 am

Personally, I don't believe screening is always a bad thing. It largely depends on the diagnosing physician being informative or not and whether the screening would merely point out an autistic spectrum disorder or be very specific how high-functioning it would be. (something I would personally see as being very difficult to see in an embryo)

If a doctor breaks the news like: "Your son may have a low functioning disorder meaning he'll require a lot of support and attention, or he may turn out to be an intelligent person with some oddities who nevertheless gets to live a fulfilling life.", I don't see many people immediately taking an abortion, particularly if the doctor takes his time to explain what autism is about. Even for people who take the pro-choice stance on abortion issues, many agree an abortion is an extremely hefty procedure that isn't meant to be taken lightly.

If a couple knows their child has autism from the very beginning, they can get educated on the subject and get the proper supervision and support from the start. In my country, there are long waiting lists in the mental care sector, so the knowledge from a screening test and the early intervention that can be arranged as a result is a good thing in my eyes. It makes life easier for both the parents and the child.

And even if a child is low-functioning, the choice should be with the parents. Having a child with a disability, particularly if it's low-functioning, has a profound effect on the life of the parents that few people who "haven't been there" can comprehend. People should get to decide for themselves whether they're up to the challenge. They're the ones whose lives are most affected by it.



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13 Feb 2009, 3:29 pm

Stijn wrote:
Personally, I don't believe screening is always a bad thing. It largely depends on the diagnosing physician being informative or not and whether the screening would merely point out an autistic spectrum disorder or be very specific how high-functioning it would be. (something I would personally see as being very difficult to see in an embryo)

If a doctor breaks the news like: "Your son may have a low functioning disorder meaning he'll require a lot of support and attention, or he may turn out to be an intelligent person with some oddities who nevertheless gets to live a fulfilling life.", I don't see many people immediately taking an abortion, particularly if the doctor takes his time to explain what autism is about. Even for people who take the pro-choice stance on abortion issues, many agree an abortion is an extremely hefty procedure that isn't meant to be taken lightly.

If a couple knows their child has autism from the very beginning, they can get educated on the subject and get the proper supervision and support from the start. In my country, there are long waiting lists in the mental care sector, so the knowledge from a screening test and the early intervention that can be arranged as a result is a good thing in my eyes. It makes life easier for both the parents and the child.

And even if a child is low-functioning, the choice should be with the parents. Having a child with a disability, particularly if it's low-functioning, has a profound effect on the life of the parents that few people who "haven't been there" can comprehend. People should get to decide for themselves whether they're up to the challenge. They're the ones whose lives are most affected by it.


I am very wary of using words like "low functioning" and "high functioning", and making judgments about them. There are some autistic people who are non-verbal and maybe can´t do some things for themselves, but have a very high intellect; likewise, there are some people who are supposedly "normal"...i.e., "high functioning"- who are total jerks and idiots. Who are we to decide what people should be allowed to live? Back in the old days, before genetic screening became an option, nobody made these kind of choices..(or should I say judgments). I believe we all create our reality; there may be a spiritual purpose why a certain event occurs, or why a certain child is born to certain parents. As soon as we start trying to control nature, we upset the balance. We´ve done this time and again. Just look at the state of the world.


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