30 Jan 2009, 8:38 pm
30 Jan 2009, 10:16 pm
30 Jan 2009, 11:47 pm
30 Jan 2009, 11:57 pm
31 Jan 2009, 12:11 am
31 Jan 2009, 12:21 am
31 Jan 2009, 12:25 am
31 Jan 2009, 12:29 am
Naturella wrote:
Silvervarg wrote:
Quote:
I just want all to have the same amount of ability, or at least for all people to have all basic capabilities. Being normal or not doesn't have anything to do with it.
Then you're not looking for a cure, you want an aid. It's the same differnes between crutches and antibiotics. (Allright, not the best metafor, but hopefully you understand.)
Quote:
How couldn't it be their way? They are people and are human beings, and so are other people. Don't act as if they're a different species! Why err on the side of your ridiculous assumptions in order to think that a cure would be unnecessary? Why not support the much more likely reality that they want to communicate like other people?
Becouse it's not more likely. In basics it's 50/50, what they want to do, but as far as I know, the "worse" atistic you are, the less you want with others to do. Why this would change, I do not understand.
Quote:
Who wouldn't want to be cured of mental impairments?
What do you mean undoing a person?
What do you mean undoing a person?
Those people that don't care or doesn't see it.
A person is defined by its personality, the personality is based upon reactions, memories and interpretation of those memories, as soon as you start messing around with someones head, how they think and how they reason, you start changing the person.
But if you use the "screwdriver" to literaly rearange the persons brain, the only thing that's left of that person is the memories. You have basicly killed someone and put in someone els in their head.
And no, it's not the same thing as when a personality evolve, those still thinks the same way. An autistic turned into an NT wouldn't.
Another portion of BS with no relation to reality... I am afraid the author of the post in this conclusion that "the more autistic you are the less you want to do with others", and therefore autistic does not want to be cured and therefore he suggests - that cure is not in their interests, forgets such a fact, that the more autistic you are, the less you are likely not understand a lot of things at all.. including the dangers. They can run or jump or cut or... whatever and kill themselves, becaue they do not understand what is going on around them.
And according to the Silvervag - those people are better be dead, because they know better what they want...
Most of the things that they would injure themselves on are built by NT society.
Quote:
As for the "personality" BS, given in the post above, I guess, again, the author forgets, that those Autistic, live after a certain age in a mental instittution, where they mostly being simply tranquilized and pumped up with all sorts of drugs, and what kinda personal peculiarities are so damn improtant at that stage for them?
Well that is a problem with society mistreating our people, as ever. You miss the point that the only cure is changing society, not ourselves.
31 Jan 2009, 1:00 am
31 Jan 2009, 2:15 am
31 Jan 2009, 2:22 am
31 Jan 2009, 2:48 am
31 Jan 2009, 7:34 am
I am not assuming the position of spokesperson for the wide array of individuals with autism. The following words are my own.
I find the debate on this thread illuminating. I find it good that this issue is freely discussed here. Good that Wrong Planet serves as forum for this exchange. Good that ideas from all sides are being flushed from the underbrush for critical review.
I see that dalurker and Naturella present their arguments out of perceived compassion for people with autism and their caregivers. I see that people with autism and Asperger's (the distinction having been made by Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders (DSM IV) - not myself) present their cases not only from considerable and reasoned thinking on this subject, but from personal perspective, having lived their lives with autism and/or Asperger's (again, not my distinction). I see that the two main emerging sides of this discussion feel unheard. I see that this debate may never be resolved!
Except in the real world.
Science has not yet taken us into the realm of genetic and neurological difference "correction" - on either side. [To illustrate the rude feel of "cure" verbiage, let me say that one day perhaps, neurotypicals will have the opportunity to have their genes and neuroanatomy "corrected" so that they will be "cured" into individuals with autism. Grates, does it not?] One day that may be a possibility. And vice versa. But realistically, genetic and/or neurologic alteration techniques are still in their infancy. A "cure" for either side is not yet feasible. Probably never will be. The important issue is: if it ever becomes a possibility, no problem will exist if the procedure is two-way, reversible, and by choice.
What can be done with the technology available today? Detection of genetic marker differences. Targeting and deletion of people with autism and Asperger's, both those now existing (perhaps selectively, by those deemed "worthy" of making that selection) and all those who have not yet been born. That would eliminate those who exist who are not deemed "worthy of existence", and everyone along the autism spectrum not yet born. Surely, Naturella and dalurker, what with your compassion for others, you would find that outcome unacceptable?
I wish to address the underlined part of this post by dalurker, and will not comment on the rest:
dalurker wrote:
My argument is not ridiculous. There is nothing ridiculous about it. Only me? Who else with a basic understanding of reality would think that anything else is better for autistic children? Even though some individuals may not want what is best for autistic children, who actually would believe that it is in the best interests of the low-functioning to keep them mentally impaired? Who would want to be mentally impaired? Nobody wants to be mentally weak. No person, autistic or not, wants to be that way. What is so outrageous and doubtful about such a truth?
Inside information? Why wouldn't they want to be fully functional people as other human beings are? Stop acting as if autistics are some kind of other species or animal. I'm not going to sit here, and let creeps like you try to reduce low-functioning autistics to the status of pets! Stop trying to shut the low-functioning out of society permanently, which sickens me extra, because you high-functioning ones can be in and out of society whenever you want and can take part in many pleasures of your choice. Considering the few autistics who started out as low-functioning and somehow became high-functioning when growing up, how many of them were disappointed about losing their mental impairments? Start considering the things I've been saying instead of addressing nonsense.
Inside information? Why wouldn't they want to be fully functional people as other human beings are? Stop acting as if autistics are some kind of other species or animal. I'm not going to sit here, and let creeps like you try to reduce low-functioning autistics to the status of pets! Stop trying to shut the low-functioning out of society permanently, which sickens me extra, because you high-functioning ones can be in and out of society whenever you want and can take part in many pleasures of your choice. Considering the few autistics who started out as low-functioning and somehow became high-functioning when growing up, how many of them were disappointed about losing their mental impairments? Start considering the things I've been saying instead of addressing nonsense.
I started life as a child living inside my own mind. I grunted rather than cried. I could speak, but rarely did. I was not unhappy. I did not "somehow become high-functioning when I grew up" - I have the same brain now that I possessed then. I merely acquired new skill sets and techniques over time in order to function in this world. I am not "disappointed by losing my mental impairments", because I did not lose my "mental impairments". I have the same brain now as then. I have the same "mental impairments". Overlaid with new skills.
Eggman wrote:
What is best for me is to be allowed to be me, and no one has the right to take that from me, even if I am not like other people..ESPECIALLY if I am not like other people.
I admire the thought in your words here - well said!
Thanks Eggman!
Last edited by Chuck on 31 Jan 2009, 9:34 am, edited 1 time in total.
31 Jan 2009, 9:03 am
dalurker wrote:
quote deleted
This topic has become sort-of silly, but despite that, you aren't allowed to call other posters names. Please edit your post to remove that. Thanks.
Last edited by ed on 31 Jan 2009, 4:07 pm, edited 1 time in total.
31 Jan 2009, 10:37 am
Chuck wrote:
I am not assuming the position of spokesperson for the wide array of individuals with autism. The following words are my own.
I find the debate on this thread illuminating. I find it good that this issue is freely discussed here. Good that Wrong Planet serves as forum for this exchange. Good that ideas from all sides are being flushed from the underbrush for critical review.
I see that dalurker and Naturella present their arguments out of perceived compassion for people with autism and their caregivers. I see that people with autism and Asperger's (the distinction having been made by Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders (DSM IV) - not myself) present their cases not only from considerable and reasoned thinking on this subject, but from personal perspective, having lived their lives with autism and/or Asperger's (again, not my distinction). I see that the two main emerging sides of this discussion feel unheard. I see that this debate may never be resolved!
Except in the real world.
Science has not yet taken us into the realm of genetic and neurological difference "correction" - on either side. [To illustrate the rude feel of "cure" verbiage, let me say that one day perhaps, neurotypicals will have the opportunity to have their genes and neuroanatomy "corrected" so that they will be "cured" into individuals with autism. Grates, does it not?] One day that may be a possibility. And vice versa. But realistically, genetic and/or neurologic alteration techniques are still in their infancy. A "cure" for either side is not yet feasible. Probably never will be. The important issue is: if it ever becomes a possibility, no problem will exist if the procedure is two-way, reversible, and by choice.
What can be done with the technology available today? Detection of genetic marker differences. Targeting and deletion of people with autism and Asperger's, both those now existing (perhaps selectively, by those deemed "worthy" of making that selection) and all those who have not yet been born. That would eliminate those who exist who are not deemed "worthy of existence", and everyone along the autism spectrum not yet born. Surely, Naturella and dalurker, what with your compassion for others, you would find that outcome unacceptable?
I wish to address the underlined part of this post by dalurker, and will not comment on the rest:
I started life as a child living inside my own mind. I grunted rather than cried. I could speak, but rarely did. I was not unhappy. I did not "somehow become high-functioning when I grew up" - I have the same brain now that I possessed then. I merely acquired new skill sets and techniques over time in order to function in this world. I am not "disappointed by losing my mental impairments", because I did not lose my "mental impairments". I have the same brain now as then. I have the same "mental impairments". Overlaid with new skills.
I admire the thought in your words here - well said! Thanks Eggman!
I find the debate on this thread illuminating. I find it good that this issue is freely discussed here. Good that Wrong Planet serves as forum for this exchange. Good that ideas from all sides are being flushed from the underbrush for critical review.
I see that dalurker and Naturella present their arguments out of perceived compassion for people with autism and their caregivers. I see that people with autism and Asperger's (the distinction having been made by Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders (DSM IV) - not myself) present their cases not only from considerable and reasoned thinking on this subject, but from personal perspective, having lived their lives with autism and/or Asperger's (again, not my distinction). I see that the two main emerging sides of this discussion feel unheard. I see that this debate may never be resolved!
Except in the real world.
Science has not yet taken us into the realm of genetic and neurological difference "correction" - on either side. [To illustrate the rude feel of "cure" verbiage, let me say that one day perhaps, neurotypicals will have the opportunity to have their genes and neuroanatomy "corrected" so that they will be "cured" into individuals with autism. Grates, does it not?] One day that may be a possibility. And vice versa. But realistically, genetic and/or neurologic alteration techniques are still in their infancy. A "cure" for either side is not yet feasible. Probably never will be. The important issue is: if it ever becomes a possibility, no problem will exist if the procedure is two-way, reversible, and by choice.
What can be done with the technology available today? Detection of genetic marker differences. Targeting and deletion of people with autism and Asperger's, both those now existing (perhaps selectively, by those deemed "worthy" of making that selection) and all those who have not yet been born. That would eliminate those who exist who are not deemed "worthy of existence", and everyone along the autism spectrum not yet born. Surely, Naturella and dalurker, what with your compassion for others, you would find that outcome unacceptable?
I wish to address the underlined part of this post by dalurker, and will not comment on the rest:
dalurker wrote:
My argument is not ridiculous. There is nothing ridiculous about it. Only me? Who else with a basic understanding of reality would think that anything else is better for autistic children? Even though some individuals may not want what is best for autistic children, who actually would believe that it is in the best interests of the low-functioning to keep them mentally impaired? Who would want to be mentally impaired? Nobody wants to be mentally weak. No person, autistic or not, wants to be that way. What is so outrageous and doubtful about such a truth?
Inside information? Why wouldn't they want to be fully functional people as other human beings are? Stop acting as if autistics are some kind of other species or animal. I'm not going to sit here, and let creeps like you try to reduce low-functioning autistics to the status of pets! Stop trying to shut the low-functioning out of society permanently, which sickens me extra, because you high-functioning ones can be in and out of society whenever you want and can take part in many pleasures of your choice. Considering the few autistics who started out as low-functioning and somehow became high-functioning when growing up, how many of them were disappointed about losing their mental impairments? Start considering the things I've been saying instead of addressing nonsense.
Inside information? Why wouldn't they want to be fully functional people as other human beings are? Stop acting as if autistics are some kind of other species or animal. I'm not going to sit here, and let creeps like you try to reduce low-functioning autistics to the status of pets! Stop trying to shut the low-functioning out of society permanently, which sickens me extra, because you high-functioning ones can be in and out of society whenever you want and can take part in many pleasures of your choice. Considering the few autistics who started out as low-functioning and somehow became high-functioning when growing up, how many of them were disappointed about losing their mental impairments? Start considering the things I've been saying instead of addressing nonsense.
I started life as a child living inside my own mind. I grunted rather than cried. I could speak, but rarely did. I was not unhappy. I did not "somehow become high-functioning when I grew up" - I have the same brain now that I possessed then. I merely acquired new skill sets and techniques over time in order to function in this world. I am not "disappointed by losing my mental impairments", because I did not lose my "mental impairments". I have the same brain now as then. I have the same "mental impairments". Overlaid with new skills.
Eggman wrote:
What is best for me is to be allowed to be me, and no one has the right to take that from me, even if I am not like other people..ESPECIALLY if I am not like other people.
I admire the thought in your words here - well said!
Thanks Eggman!Well spoken, exept for one thing that most of you seems to have missed.
Quote:
The important issue is: if it ever becomes a possibility, no problem will exist if the procedure is two-way, reversible, and by choice.
This will never (99%) happen.
Quote:
the procedure is two-way, and by choice
This might happen. (No NT would take this treatment, since they fear the non-social part.)
Quote:
the procedure is by choice
This, I hope never happens. But it's most likely to happen. And from this perspective and with human history as the pattern has been so far, this will happen.
Step one:
Only volunteers will take the treatment.
Step two:
A black market for the treatment of severly atistic opens. (This should take about 3 months after step one has started.) Parents what wants normal children goes to other countries and force their children to be treated.
Step three:
The new NT-children comes home, plays football, hang out with friends, go to partys etc. These cases are observed by the news and they intervue these new NT. The NTs that likes their new selvs tells the world how happy they are that they are "cured". NTs that thinks like naturella and dalurker starts to call for an all-out treatment for severly autistic.
Step four:
A compromise is reached, this say that parents will choose for their children. (Assumingly) 70-80% of all severly autistic children will be treated before they've grown up, thanks to pressure from society and family.
Step five:
People will start to pressure for an all-out treatment of the autistic that's still not "cured", the government will see the positive in this movement due to the economic benifits of working citizen. The public now see autism as a disease that can be cured. Pressure rise against the others on the spectrum to have the treatment so they becomes "normal".
Step six:
Everyone diagnosed autism will be encuraged to take the treatment against their "sickness" (including their parents and family to increase pressure) since it will make it easier for them to adapt to society. The increased lack of understanding and fellow autistic will isolate the few that are left.
Step seven:
NT: "s**t, we might have made a mistake in this matter...
"
The only autistic left: "I told you so...
"
Anyone recognice this...?
NTs are (as a rule) as kindharted as they are stupid, and lack the ability to think all the way. But they are very good at acting suprised (and becoming angry) when all of it goes down the drain ('couse "nobody told them/they didn't think this might happen...").
31 Jan 2009, 12:53 pm
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