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Where do you stand on the issue?
pro-cure, I'm on the spectrum 14%  14%  [ 9 ]
anti-cure, I'm on the spectrum 61%  61%  [ 39 ]
pro-cure, I'm an NT parent of an ASD child 2%  2%  [ 1 ]
anti-cure, I'm a NT parent of an ASD child 0%  0%  [ 0 ]
other 23%  23%  [ 15 ]
Total votes : 64

Gedrene
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16 Nov 2011, 1:04 pm

Intense rivarlry? I must then have intense rivalries with fifty people on the site. Maybe I am just intense.



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16 Nov 2011, 1:16 pm

Gedrene wrote:
Intense rivarlry? I must then have intense rivalries with fifty people on the site. Maybe I am just intense.
you could be right,i dont post much outside politics.i would say your an intense guy.your arguement with aghogday are exciting but sometimes hard to follow.your abilities or absract thought are way above mine.honestly only one person has ever sent me a message complaining about you,so you couldnt be to bad.i enjoy you and aghoday's discouse greatly


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16 Nov 2011, 3:11 pm

Niall wrote:
Inventor wrote:
I can check off that list, and more.

What changed, is I bought my first bike at fifteen, and as a man-machine, I do well. Fifty years on the road, never hit anything. I have strange posture. sit crosslegged. It is natural for me, and a lot of others world wide.

They gave up on teaching me to write, I have printed all my life. I got good at it. I met several others that did the same, we all owned Rapidiograph ink pens. Thin line drafting pens, expensive then, now Bic makes them in several line widths.

---snip---
...

We are born perceptive, willing, eager to meet life, we are met with a life destroying rejection.

Some do survive, find our song, but the sorrow can be heard.


Yes, exactly. I agree, entirely.

I feel that neurotypicals are mad, merely wanting to hurt, probably to feel more powerful that something else. I'm trying not to hate both them and me. At the moment, that is hard. I do not think that we need a cure for AS. Perhaps we need a cure for their form of madness.

Mad, yes, wanting to hurt, no.



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16 Nov 2011, 3:14 pm

nostromo wrote:
Niall wrote:
Inventor wrote:
I can check off that list, and more.

What changed, is I bought my first bike at fifteen, and as a man-machine, I do well. Fifty years on the road, never hit anything. I have strange posture. sit crosslegged. It is natural for me, and a lot of others world wide.

They gave up on teaching me to write, I have printed all my life. I got good at it. I met several others that did the same, we all owned Rapidiograph ink pens. Thin line drafting pens, expensive then, now Bic makes them in several line widths.

---snip---
...

We are born perceptive, willing, eager to meet life, we are met with a life destroying rejection.

Some do survive, find our song, but the sorrow can be heard.


Yes, exactly. I agree, entirely.

I feel that neurotypicals are mad, merely wanting to hurt, probably to feel more powerful that something else. I'm trying not to hate both them and me. At the moment, that is hard. I do not think that we need a cure for AS. Perhaps we need a cure for their form of madness.

Mad, yes, wanting to hurt, no.


So why, with their apparent ability to understand the emotions of others, are they so good at hurting others?



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16 Nov 2011, 3:15 pm

vermontsavant wrote:
Gedrene wrote:
Intense rivarlry? I must then have intense rivalries with fifty people on the site. Maybe I am just intense.
you could be right,i dont post much outside politics.i would say your an intense guy.your arguement with aghogday are exciting but sometimes hard to follow.your abilities or absract thought are way above mine.honestly only one person has ever sent me a message complaining about you,so you couldnt be to bad.i enjoy you and aghoday's discouse greatly

I don't enjoy it. But then again I am following the discussion quite a lot closely since I am one of the participants.



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16 Nov 2011, 3:42 pm

Gedrene wrote:
aghogday wrote:
vermontsavant wrote:
@aghogday.who was that last post directed at.it said gedrene but im the only one in the last few posts who said they play the piano

I was speaking to Gedrene.

You were saying that I play the Piano. But that's a completely load of balderdash. I don't pla the Piano and I never said that I did. That was someone else. Can you read rather than baselessly assume?

aghogday wrote:
My understanding now, is that he doesn't like the words "special interest", which are described below as intense absorption in certain subjects often involving minutia, so he may not think that applies to his own personal behavior, which of course is his business,

Noooo... I said that I hadn't told you any of my special interests. You seem to be stuck in very thick black and white thinking, where just because I say that you are wrong about my special interests, you assume that I have none.

aghogday wrote:
Quote:
lack of empathy, ability to take another's perspective
· naïve, inappropriate, one-sided interaction with others
· little or no ability to form friendships
· social anxiety
· pedantic, repetitive speech
· intense absorption in certain subjects, often involving minutia (e.g., train
schedules, numbers, maps)
· poor non-verbal communication, including limited use of gestures and facial
expressions
· clumsy, ill-coordinated movements, odd postures or mannerisms
· difficulty establishing and maintaining eye-contact
It ir ironic that as people age quite a few of them lose all of these identifiers of aspergers, which goes to show that they are a load of crap based on things that people with aspergers can themselves fix, or are otherwise based on social norms that we do not really give a damn about in our younger years or that NTs simply fail at teaching directly.

What is amazing is how many studies say these things all of which are generalized heavily in their meaning froma practical point of view, many of which can be normal human traits depending on the person, none of which ever simply mean the same thing, none of which together imply one disorder together.


This is the statement you made below in another post about special interests, that I remembered incorrectly as being associated with the piano. I can't tell from this post for sure whether or not you consider yourself to have special interests, but from my memory I had remembered at one point in time you had talked about your interests:

Quote:
I vary between lots of stuff. I hate the words special interests. It makes it sound as if only a special person would be interested in them. not that I am that especially interested in strange things. I like practical or intellectual stuff: Spanish, History, Biology (specifically zoology).


http://www.wrongplanet.net/postt169133.html

I had most all of those traits of Asperger traits my entire life, and never considered them disabling at all, challenging at times, but not disabling. Up to thirty percent of the population has at least one autistic trait, so of course autistic traits are seen throughout the population.

People notice these traits in others, it's only when the degree of the clinical features and/or criteria becomes impairing to a person in an important area of life, where together they are considered to constitute a disorder and a person recieves a diagnosis.

This is the main thing to remember, if a person has these traits to a degree where they do not impair a person in life, they are not considered to have a disorder. That's why you see some of these traits in up to 30 percent of the population, many of which are fully employeed, married, have kids and living lives similiar to everyone else, without any known diagnostic impairments.

Those personality traits in Germans are stereotyped ones, but apparently common and accepted in that culture, where in a different culture or group of individuals they might not be seen as acceptable as they are in that culture, and it might be harder for an individual with those personality traits to make in life, in a culture where their personality traits were not accepted as well. Wouldn't necessarily deter them from success, but life might be a little more challenging for them

For a diagnosis of anti-social personality disorder the behavior must be understood to fall beyond the cultural norm. Some of the things that politicians do would normally fall under that definition, but since they are accepted within the subcultural norms for politicians, technically they aren't considered anti-social behavior.

Obviously FGM, might be part of a group of behaviors in the US that might gain a person an Anti-social behavior disorder in the US, but not so in a country where it was socially acceptable behavior.

It's why some people who have introverted or autistic traits do quite well if they find a niche where they find themselves in a comfortable social arrangement, but they may have much greater difficulties in another niche in society, where one must be very outgoing to have success in life. What's acceptable, impairing, or disabling in one context may be the opposite in another cultural context.

Part of success in life is understanding one's inherent strengths and weaknesses and finding a place in life where the strengths are enhanced and the weaknesses are not necessary for success.

Einstein found his niche in life, but there were many aspects of his intelligence, likely caused by the anamolies in his brain, that he was deficient in, that did not deter him from success. That's the good story from adversity and/or neurodiversity, but it doesn't work out that way for everyone.



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16 Nov 2011, 3:54 pm

Gedrene wrote:
aghogday wrote:
vermontsavant wrote:
@aghogday.who was that last post directed at.it said gedrene but im the only one in the last few posts who said they play the piano

I was speaking to Gedrene.

You were saying that I play the Piano. But that's a completely load of balderdash. I don't pla the Piano and I never said that I did. That was someone else. Can you read rather than baselessly assume?

aghogday wrote:
My understanding now, is that he doesn't like the words "special interest", which are described below as intense absorption in certain subjects often involving minutia, so he may not think that applies to his own personal behavior, which of course is his business,

Noooo... I said that I hadn't told you any of my special interests. You seem to be stuck in very thick black and white thinking, where just because I say that you are wrong about my special interests, you assume that I have none.

aghogday wrote:
Quote:
lack of empathy, ability to take another's perspective
· naïve, inappropriate, one-sided interaction with others
· little or no ability to form friendships
· social anxiety
· pedantic, repetitive speech
· intense absorption in certain subjects, often involving minutia (e.g., train
schedules, numbers, maps)
· poor non-verbal communication, including limited use of gestures and facial
expressions
· clumsy, ill-coordinated movements, odd postures or mannerisms
· difficulty establishing and maintaining eye-contact


It ir ironic that as people age quite a few of them lose all of these identifiers of aspergers, which goes to show that they are a load of crap based on things that people with aspergers can themselves fix, or are otherwise based on social norms that we do not really give a damn about in our younger years or that NTs simply fail at teaching directly.

What is amazing is how many studies say these things all of which are generalized heavily in their meaning froma practical point of view, many of which can be normal human traits depending on the person, none of which ever simply mean the same thing, none of which together imply one disorder together
.


ScientistOfSound brought up pianos, vermontsavant also, the aghogday comment was directed at Gedrene. It did not infer musical ability. The point was lost, anyone seen it?

Back to the family business, even a non piano playing stopped clock is right twice a day, and the bolded part above does shoot holes in the learned discourse that leads to lives ruined and billable hours.

Left on it's own, this disorder vanishes in adults, while the same develops in other adults later in life. Old NTs do start fitting the criteria for autistic children.

Now with proper treatment from Professionals, plus misguieded parents, teachers, nosey neighbors, and various psychopathic apes just looking for someone to dump on, it can become a lifetime disorder, which seems to be the hope of most.

Progressing on what is just another path that leads to an adult outcome, is labeled wrong, so any and all obstruction is allowed and promoted by professionals, who prove this by showing that the narural development calls for intervention.

While our normal path is fine with us, and does produce an adult without the symptoms list, this can be proven wrong by showing our behavior when poked with a pointed stick, as therapy.

Interventions, like constantly pointing out everything you do or say is wrong, can and do stop autistic development, or any development, which leads to what is called a Psychotic Break in young adults when they start yelling, Shut up! Just shut up and go away!

This successful treatment is then followed up by calls to the police.

Treatment, a childhood of the pointed stick, and resistance being met with chains and cages, is all so Professional. This is justified because if they were just allowed to develop on their natural path, few could notice they were autistic as adults.

All of the criteria can be made more intense, and lifetime, by use of the pointed stick of rejection and disapproval. This is the goal of treatment, more billable hours.

Every other disorder has a prognosis, if left untreated the condition worsens. Autism is the only one I know where this natrual outcome is left out of all learned research, because untreated, it just goes away.

Only Professional and parental treatment can make it a lifetime disability, where through intervention, it can be maintained to at least the point of becoming so alienated from life, group homes, Institutions, jails become the only answer.

This behavior can also be seen in chickens, where any differance, is seen as a defect, and all of the flock peck at the different one until it dies.

It is also seen in nesting birds where siblings will push the weaker away from being fed, which leads to them dying.

Birds get their behavior from reptiles. The same behavior can be seen in mammals.

More than any other factor, this behavior has retarded the mental development of the species.

The other side of the autism criteria.
The traits a predator needs to stalk, misdirect, their prey.
Those who do not exhibit the killer traits are killed by thier own species, as practice.

My pre Dx self treatment that cured most symptoms of autism, a social disorder, owning a motorcycle, and the study of martial arts. I did not change, but the practice predator behavior of those around me did.

We are feared, attacked in youth, because with age we become the intelligent predator. The sharp rock, spear, were the motorcycle of the day, with it we could take out the largest of natural born killers. Their dying words, it is not fair, he cheated.

Thier cultural ideal is Big Bubba who plays football and can beat people up.

Our cultural ideal develops knowledge, technology, that leaves Big Bubba saying, he cheated.

While few in number, we are the largest threat to Species survival as seen by Big Bubba. This goes deeper than their reptile brains, Big Bubba is no longer the dominate Species Ideal.

Autism may be the focus, that epidemic that is stealing our children that must be cured, the real issue is people like that are taking over, and Big Bubba, made in the image of God, is in decline. All of the Greek Gods were buff, shown just after a workout, wearing a towel. The Cistien Chapel, god touches Adam, both are pumped to the max. It looks like Steriods to me.

Adult outcomes are avoided because they do show that autistics become normal, and as nerds, geeks, The Broader Phenotype, are taking over the world.

I also notice they only dare attack us as children.



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16 Nov 2011, 4:13 pm

aghogday wrote:
This is the statement you made below in another post about special interests, that I remembered incorrectly as being associated with the piano. I can't tell from this post for sure whether or not you consider yourself to have special interests, but from my memory I had remembered at one point in time you had talked about your interests
Indeed. I did say that I hated it. So now I contradict myself, and I guess I have to freely admit to that. Damn. Anyways more importantly the fact remains that I do hate the term special interests, but I think I do have intense interests. However I feel that calling them as such is just a way NTs mudsling us for being different because we seem so deeply involved with something that they are not.
Fact is I find the encyclopaedic knowledge of many NTs about football around me very unusual, but I don't then say that have special interests.
Some NTs tattoo their body and obsess, fight over, even (very rarely) kill for their teams. I don't then use that in some preposterous diagnostic system.

aghogday wrote:
People notice these traits in others, it's only when the degree of the clinical features and/or criteria becomes impairing to a person in an important area of life, where together they are considered to constitute a disorder and a person recieves a diagnosis.
I am sorry but you are failing to envision the fact that many aren't in disabling and miserable conditions just because they are disabled in some meaningful way but because the rest of humanity for the most part rejects them, fails to make anything of them, sticks labels on them and pidgeonholes them. Not long ago people like may have been give a lobotomy. It aint rain and sunshine now aghogday.

ahogday wrote:
Wouldn't necessarily deter them from success, but life might be a little more challenging for them
Now that's just blind optimism. You have no idea how much bigotry and slow someone down.

aghogday wrote:
For a diagnosis of anti-social personality disorder the behavior must be understood to fall beyond the cultural norm. Some of the things that politicians do would normally fall under that definition, but since they are accepted within the subcultural norms for politicians, technically they aren't considered anti-social behavior.
Despite the megalomanic attempts of human societies in general the fact is that social norms cannot decide what is and what is not consistent anti-social behaviour, despite its attempts to mandate as such.
If cultural norms change what it acceptable despite what reason would dictate then they only pervert the course of things. The only thing that dictates right and wrong are circumstances, not culture. Culture doesn't say what is right or wrong, it just mandates what will be accepted and what not to a degree.

aghogday wrote:
That's the good story from adversity and/or neurodiversity, but it doesn't work out that way for everyone.
And I am saying that these negative qualities are in many cases nothing more than because someone heads against the tide of useless and even counterproductive garnish that occurs in Human society. In our social context I have seen NTs suffer and fail to keep up or engage in a meaningful way. It becomes clear that in a social way, with the most capable of us, our inability is only more apparent because we are in the clear minority.



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16 Nov 2011, 4:22 pm

im not sure who plays the piano either,but i bet im the best


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16 Nov 2011, 4:48 pm

vermontsavant wrote:
im not sure who plays the piano either,but i bet im the best


I played it for over 30 years. Playing musical instruments is a great way to get into touch with one's emotions, and in addition to increase the ability to put emotion into communication, moving away from the little professor that is dominant in some.

There are studies that provide evidence that it is like therapy for some autistics.

I can remember not having the motivation to talk, and playing the piano all night long, waking up the next day with the ability to talk and socialize that I couldn't find in the previous day. I thought there was somekind of connection there with emotion and logic that was strenghened by the musical activity. I doubt I would have ever got married, if it wasn't for that skill.



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16 Nov 2011, 4:51 pm

Gedrene wrote:
aghogday wrote:
People notice these traits in others, it's only when the degree of the clinical features and/or criteria becomes impairing to a person in an important area of life, where together they are considered to constitute a disorder and a person recieves a diagnosis.

I am sorry but you are failing to envision the fact that many aren't in disabling and miserable conditions just because they are disabled in some meaningful way but because the rest of humanity for the most part rejects them, fails to make anything of them, sticks labels on them and pidgeonholes them. Not long ago people like may have been give a lobotomy. It aint rain and sunshine now aghogday.

Of course your not wrong, but then you must admit some people ARE disabled in a meaningful way.



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16 Nov 2011, 5:11 pm

I agree with a lot of what is being said here. There's some really interesting work on the gene that codes for the Serotonin Transporter protein (SERT). Everyone has two copies of this gene, either of which can be a long version or a short version. If you have two copies of the long version, you will be more or less immune to extremes of low mood.

If one or both copies are the short version, you have enhanced emotional responsivity. In a stressful environment, you will be more likely to be prone to depression. In a more nurturing one, you can become relatively successful, at least by some standards.

I do disagree with one statement.

Inventor noted, "I also notice they only dare attack us as children."

As an adult, that is not my experience. I was attacked as a child. I was attacked on this site yesterday, and elsewhere this morning, for the crime of wanting a nurturing society.



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16 Nov 2011, 5:27 pm

aghogday wrote:
Gedrene wrote:
aghogday wrote:
People notice these traits in others, it's only when the degree of the clinical features and/or criteria becomes impairing to a person in an important area of life, where together they are considered to constitute a disorder and a person recieves a diagnosis.
I am sorry but you are failing to envision the fact that many aren't in disabling and miserable conditions just because they are disabled in some meaningful way but because the rest of humanity for the most part rejects them, fails to make anything of them, sticks labels on them and pidgeonholes them. Not long ago people like may have been give a lobotomy. It aint rain and sunshine now aghogday.

ahogday wrote:
Wouldn't necessarily deter them from success, but life might be a little more challenging for them
Now that's just blind optimism. You have no idea how much bigotry and slow someone down.

aghogday wrote:
For a diagnosis of anti-social personality disorder the behavior must be understood to fall beyond the cultural norm. Some of the things that politicians do would normally fall under that definition, but since they are accepted within the subcultural norms for politicians, technically they aren't considered anti-social behavior.
Despite the megalomanic attempts of human societies in general the fact is that social norms cannot decide what is and what is not consistent anti-social behaviour, despite its attempts to mandate as such.
If cultural norms change what it acceptable despite what reason would dictate then they only pervert the course of things. The only thing that dictates right and wrong are circumstances, not culture. Culture doesn't say what is right or wrong, it just mandates what will be accepted and what not to a degree.

aghogday wrote:
That's the good story from adversity and/or neurodiversity, but it doesn't work out that way for everyone.
And I am saying that these negative qualities are in many cases nothing more than because someone heads against the tide of useless and even counterproductive garnish that occurs in Human society. In our social context I have seen NTs suffer and fail to keep up or engage in a meaningful way. It becomes clear that in a social way, with the most capable of us, our inability is only more apparent because we are in the clear minority.


I provided statistics before that 80% of identified diagnosed adults with ASD's depend on their parents for support and 90 percent don't maintain regular employment, that doesn't sound like sunshine to me. There are sociological factors at play and biological factors for individuals that have disabilities, I've never suggested that this is a black and white issue.

When I was talking about life being a little more challenging, I was talking about German Personality traits acceptable in that culture, perhaps not as accepted in another cultural context, providing some level of challenge, on the other hand it could be an advantage rather than a challenge; it depends on the individual and the context.

I wasn't speaking to any moral issues of what is right and wrong, only what is considered the acceptable norms within culture. People within cultures decide what is right or wrong for them on a moral basis.

Some people consider abortion morally wrong others consider it a legal choice and morally acceptable. But in the culture as a whole, it is an acceptable behavior, regardless of any individual's moral concerns regarding the issue.

Some people abhor abortion on a moral basis more than they abhor FGM. It's relative, depending on an individual's personal morals that they have gained through their own unique life experience.

Another person can judge others morals, based on their personally held morals of what is right or wrong, but that doesn't change the morals of others and what they consider right or wrong. Right or Wrong in many cases is a subjective human judgement.

It's why it takes a jury of 12 to decide a judgement along with a judge in the legal system and an interview process to eliminate those with personal moral bias.

Human beings are biased in their morals and what they believe is right or wrong, without all of those opinions to gain a concensus of a correct perception of the facts, the process would be much more flawed than it is now.

Circumstances and Culture do affect how people see right or wrong, but circumstances and culture do not necessarily dictate what an individual's personal morals or belief in right or wrong might be.

In fact, it has been suggested that some people may be born with the inability to determine right from wrong, because of structural issues in the brain, 1 to 3 percent of the population, that are technically referred to as sociopaths. In these cases circumstances and culture have little bearing on what they see as right or wrong.



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16 Nov 2011, 5:53 pm

aghogday wrote:
vermontsavant wrote:
im not sure who plays the piano either,but i bet im the best


I played it for over 30 years. Playing musical instruments is a great way to get into touch with one's emotions, and in addition to increase the ability to put emotion into communication, moving away from the little professor that is dominant in some.

There are studies that provide evidence that it is like therapy for some autistics.

I can remember not having the motivation to talk, and playing the piano all night long, waking up the next day with the ability to talk and socialize that I couldn't find in the previous day. I thought there was somekind of connection there with emotion and logic that was strenghened by the musical activity. I doubt I would have ever got married, if it wasn't for that skill.
i actualy run in high circles in the world of classical music.im not famous but in friends with big names in the world of mostlly composition.a close friend of mine is going to have his works played by the san francisco symphony orchestra.its rare i get to look smarter than you a gedrene so i might as well milk it for all i can get.once in a great while the savant with no absract thought capacity gets to win.it is very tricky to say if the barriers experienced by autistics is more disability or prejudice.i would say it depends on who you are.i would say my self 60% disabilitu and 40% prejudice


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16 Nov 2011, 6:05 pm

vermontsavant wrote:
aghogday wrote:
vermontsavant wrote:
im not sure who plays the piano either,but i bet im the best


I played it for over 30 years. Playing musical instruments is a great way to get into touch with one's emotions, and in addition to increase the ability to put emotion into communication, moving away from the little professor that is dominant in some.

There are studies that provide evidence that it is like therapy for some autistics.

I can remember not having the motivation to talk, and playing the piano all night long, waking up the next day with the ability to talk and socialize that I couldn't find in the previous day. I thought there was somekind of connection there with emotion and logic that was strenghened by the musical activity. I doubt I would have ever got married, if it wasn't for that skill.
i actualy run in high circles in the world of classical music.im not famous but in friends with big names in the world of mostlly composition.a close friend of mine is going to have his works played by the san francisco symphony orchestra.its rare i get to look smarter than you a gedrene so i might as well milk it for all i can get.once in a great while the savant with no absract thought capacity gets to win.it is very tricky to say if the barriers experienced by autistics is more disability or prejudice.i would say it depends on who you are.i would say my self 60% disabilitu and 40% prejudice


There are all kind of intelligences, and abilities, no one holds them all. I made straight A's in schools, but my dreams were mostly playing team sports, which were well beyond my reach. The fact of the matter is I didn't have the type of intelligence to do the team sports, but I was good at answering questions on a test.

I am impressed with your understanding of musical composition, I could never get it; learning where to put my fingers on the keyboard in relationship with the sheet music was about as deep as I got into it. Eventually I could create music, but only to my likening and a few others, nothing outstanding. And I never translated it into actual composition.

I've had bosses that were horrible at grammar and spelling, but talked in hours of perfect paragraphs. We all have our stronger and weaker points. Having an outstanding skill sets one apart from others though.