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Niall
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18 Dec 2011, 5:17 pm

This may have been discussed before but, if so, I can't find it.

I've been thinking more and more recently that many neuroypicals are just as pathological as many covered by the DSM. With that in mind, I thought I'd put together the following to define the pathological neurotypical. This is not to say that all neurotypicals are pathological but, as a gedanken experiment I thought I'd see what a pathological neurotypical might look like.

Sadly, I've encountered a lot of humans who fit the following description.

The patient must exhibit at least six of the following:

1) Marked dishonesty. This may express as an excessive concern for social reputation. http://www.pnas.org/content/108/42/17302

2) Marked interest in trivial pursuits (drinking, sports, soap operas, shopping etc)

3) Impaired higher executive function. The patient has an IQ of under 115.

4) Impaired concentration (the patient's concentration will be limited to no more than 20 minutes, or however long it takes to find the next TV channel)

5) Impaired theory of mind. The patient may consider only the intentions of their actions, and not the consequences. Pathology is indicated where the consequences are solipsistic, resulting in the patient regarding as acceptable, or simply not considering, adverse consequences for those more vulnerable than they are (including nonhuman animals). (NB: this is also characteristic of sociopathic disorders: those scoring highly on this scale, such as bankers, welfare administrators, politicians and those employed by immigration services organisations, should be tested separately by an expert clinician.)

6) Limited focus (the patient will be interested in many different subjects, and unable to focus on one to the exclusion of others).

7) Low sensitivity to all stimuli. The patient will not respond to any heightened stimuli.

8 ) Shows marked distress when isolated. The patient requires to be in a group or work in a team and will be unable to take pleasure in their own company for over 24 hours.

9) The basis of humour is trivialised, and may be limited to commentary on the misfortunes of others (schadenfreude). If the patient has ever watched more than 10 minutes of a Hollywood “comedy” and enjoyed it, this may be taken by the clinician to indicate pathology.

10) The patient depends heavily on nonverbal communication, and may fail to develop adequate written language skills.

The patient may also exhibit an inefficient flat-footed gait.

AND

The patient does not exhibit traits required for a diagnosis of another disorder.

Any thoughts?

(edited to take out the unwanted smiley created by the numeral 8 followed by a close parenthesis)



fraac
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18 Dec 2011, 5:45 pm

Do you sometimes wonder if the only difference between a sociopath and an NT is sociopaths are smarter?



Niall
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18 Dec 2011, 5:47 pm

fraac wrote:
Do you sometimes wonder if the only difference between a sociopath and an NT is sociopaths are smarter?


It had crossed my mind. I'd need to have a good look at the diagnostic criteria. I wouldn't always rule it out.



NathanealWest
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18 Dec 2011, 6:03 pm

Uhh, this looks like a laundry list of things that peeve you turned into "science" for an authoritative source.



Niall
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18 Dec 2011, 6:11 pm

These are the diagnostic criteria for Antisocial Personality Disorder, since sociopathy isn't used as a diagnosis as such:

A) There is a pervasive pattern of disregard for and violation of the rights of others occurring since age 15 years, as indicated by three or more of the following:

1. failure to conform to social norms with respect to lawful behaviors as indicated by repeatedly performing acts that are grounds for arrest;
2. deception, as indicated by repeatedly lying, use of aliases, or conning others for personal profit or pleasure;
3. impulsiveness or failure to plan ahead;
4. irritability and aggressiveness, as indicated by repeated physical fights or assaults;
5. reckless disregard for safety of self or others;
6. consistent irresponsibility, as indicated by repeated failure to sustain consistent work behavior or honor financial obligations;
7. lack of remorse, as indicated by being indifferent to or rationalizing having hurt, mistreated, or stolen from another;

B) The individual is at least age 18 years.
C) There is evidence of conduct disorder with onset before age 15 years.
D) The occurrence of antisocial behavior is not exclusively during the course of schizophrenia or a manic episode.


If people with ASPD are simply extreme, typically intelligent, NTs, I would say that I have encountered excuses for humanity like this. If one replaces "grounds for arrest" with "violates moral standards" (many of those working for big business, immigration departments (especially those carrying out deportations) many politicians, etc work within the law, but behave immorally)) then there are a lot of people on this spectrum. I can name institutions that behave like this, and those institutions are made of individuals where these behaviours may be considered normalised.

I would call for research.



Arisa
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18 Dec 2011, 6:15 pm

Oh, lookie here. Another thread ranting about NTs. This is totally going to get us somewhere.



Niall
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18 Dec 2011, 6:17 pm

NathanealWest wrote:
Uhh, this looks like a laundry list of things that peeve you turned into "science" for an authoritative source.


But that's not my question. Even if this were true (which I dispute) are these behaviours pathological, in that they cause harm or inhibit functioning? Is this a common cluster of behaviours?

It may be pseudoscience without good research to back it up, but I don't think that invalidates the questions. Perhaps I framed them wrong.



nostromo
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18 Dec 2011, 6:57 pm

Very droll, let help extend the list

11) Display illogical choices and preferences seemingly at random e.g. while engaged in feeding activities many NTs will refuse to discuss ailments of the lower digestive tract, in spite of there being a known causal link between the two.

12) Generally unable to use the Simplex mode of verbal communication.

13) Suffer from a pre-occupation with bodily hygiene, with some individuals evidently showering and using a toothbrush as much as once a day.

:wink:



NathanealWest
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18 Dec 2011, 6:59 pm

Your question was "Any Thoughts" and I shared mine. It may not be what you want to hear.



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18 Dec 2011, 7:01 pm

NathanealWest wrote:
Uhh, this looks like a laundry list of things that peeve you turned into "science" for an authoritative source.
that my friend is the art of psychology.



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18 Dec 2011, 9:21 pm

I hope this is suppose to be funny because the NTs I do chose to spend time with don't fit most of that criteria :?
There are some annoying/mean NTs, but no one can be accurately pathologised, not even Aspies. There's a point you get to in psychology where everything starts to sound a lot like BS.
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wv49RFo1ckQ[/youtube]
I wish I lived in a world where I didn't need to be diagnosed with AS because I wouldn't need it. I could be me and everyone else would be fine with it and I could thrive off my special talents.



aghogday
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18 Dec 2011, 11:09 pm

Niall wrote:
These are the diagnostic criteria for Antisocial Personality Disorder, since sociopathy isn't used as a diagnosis as such:

A) There is a pervasive pattern of disregard for and violation of the rights of others occurring since age 15 years, as indicated by three or more of the following:

1. failure to conform to social norms with respect to lawful behaviors as indicated by repeatedly performing acts that are grounds for arrest;
2. deception, as indicated by repeatedly lying, use of aliases, or conning others for personal profit or pleasure;
3. impulsiveness or failure to plan ahead;
4. irritability and aggressiveness, as indicated by repeated physical fights or assaults;
5. reckless disregard for safety of self or others;
6. consistent irresponsibility, as indicated by repeated failure to sustain consistent work behavior or honor financial obligations;
7. lack of remorse, as indicated by being indifferent to or rationalizing having hurt, mistreated, or stolen from another;

B) The individual is at least age 18 years.
C) There is evidence of conduct disorder with onset before age 15 years.
D) The occurrence of antisocial behavior is not exclusively during the course of schizophrenia or a manic episode.


If people with ASPD are simply extreme, typically intelligent, NTs, I would say that I have encountered excuses for humanity like this. If one replaces "grounds for arrest" with "violates moral standards" (many of those working for big business, immigration departments (especially those carrying out deportations) many politicians, etc work within the law, but behave immorally)) then there are a lot of people on this spectrum. I can name institutions that behave like this, and those institutions are made of individuals where these behaviours may be considered normalised.

I would call for research.


The DSMV proposed revision for Anti-Social Personality Disorder quoted below is much different. It removes much of the criminal element that was in the DSMIV version.

The bolded phrases below in the DSMV revision are some of the stereotypical comments I have heard through the years about Politicians and CEO's.

A key point as you make some reference to, and a new element included in the DSMV proposed revision is much of this behavior bolded below is stereotypical and generally considered a normative aspect within the subulture of politics and corporations.

As long as the behavior is acceptable within cultural norms, it's not considered anti-social behavior per criteria below.


Quote:
A. Significant impairments in personality functioning manifest by:

1. Impairments in self functioning (a or b):

a. Identity: Ego-centrism; self-esteem derived from personal gain, power, or pleasure.

b. Self-direction: Goal-setting based on personal gratification; absence of prosocial internal standards associated with failure to conform to lawful or culturally normative ethical behavior.



AND



2. Impairments in interpersonal functioning (a or b):

a. Empathy: Lack of concern for feelings, needs, or suffering of others; lack of remorse after hurting or mistreating another.

b. Intimacy: Incapacity for mutually intimate relationships, as exploitation is a primary means of relating to others, including by deceit and coercion; use of dominance or intimidation to control others.

B. Pathological personality traits in the following domains:

1. Antagonism, characterized by:

a. Manipulativeness: Frequent use of subterfuge to influence or control others; use of seduction, charm, glibness, or ingratiation to achieve one‘s ends.
b. Deceitfulness: Dishonesty and fraudulence; misrepresentation of self; embellishment or fabrication when relating events.

c. Callousness: Lack of concern for feelings or problems of others; lack of guilt or remorse about the negative or harmful effects of one‘s actions on others; aggression; sadism.

d. Hostility: Persistent or frequent angry feelings; anger or irritability in response to minor slights and insults; mean, nasty, or vengeful behavior.

2. Disinhibition, characterized by:
a. Irresponsibility: Disregard for – and failure to honor – financial and other obligations or commitments; lack of respect for – and lack of follow through on – agreements and promises.

b. Impulsivity: Acting on the spur of the moment in response to immediate stimuli; acting on a momentary basis without a plan or consideration of outcomes; difficulty establishing and following plans.

c. Risk taking: Engagement in dangerous, risky, and potentially self-damaging activities, unnecessarily and without regard for consequences; boredom proneness and thoughtless initiation of activities to counter boredom; lack of concern for one‘s limitations and denial of the reality of personal danger.

C. The impairments in personality functioning and the individual’s personality trait expression are relatively stable across time and consistent across situations.

D. The impairments in personality functioning and the individual’s personality trait expression are not better understood as normative for the individual’s developmental stage or socio-cultural environment.

E. The impairments in personality functioning and the individual’s personality trait expression are not solely due to the direct physiological effects of a substance (e.g., a drug of abuse, medication) or a general medical condition (e.g., severe head trauma).



http://www.dsm5.org/ProposedRevision/Pages/proposedrevision.aspx?rid=16

Ironically though, some of the "neurotypicals" diagnosed with anti-social behavior may not be neurotypical after all. Research suggests that genetics may influence some children with anti-social personality disorder.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Psychopathy#Genetics

Quote:
A 2005 twin study found that children with antisocial behavior can be classified into two groups: those who also had high "callous-unemotional traits" were "under extremely strong genetic influence and no influence of shared environment" while those who were ranked low of those traits were under both "moderate genetic and shared environmental influence."[74]


Studies also link Schizophrenia, Bi-Polar disorder, and ADHD, to genetics, as some Neurodiversity sources include these conditions within the definition of neurodiversity.

I've seen only a few neurodiversity sources that include Schizophrenia, and don't think I have seen any that include anti-social behavior, but never the less, potential differences in the brain and neurology per genetic research are indicated in these disorders, as well as in Autism Spectrum disorders.

Up to 30 percent of the population has been shown as having some traits of autism.

In some studies Introverted personality types spread out into the population at reported rates from anywhere from 30 to 50 percent.

Introversion has also been linked to differences in the function of the dopamine reward system in the brain, through some research, so are introverts really neurotypical? Not really, if the research is correct.

On the other hand, if the rest of the population is somewhere in the extroverted range, and their dopamine reward system functions differently than the introverts, whose to say which one is neurotypical, extroverts or introverts? No way to tell as far as I can see.

That leaves somewhere in the middle for what might be considered the middle of the whole human spectrum of neurology, whatever that is.

But that might consist of anywhere from 1 to 20% of the population which means they would likely be out-numbered by both extroverts and introverts, so at most one might call them the mean or the average of neurology, but typical would definitely be a moving target, hard to define.

There is little to no evidence for neurotypical, but an abundance of evidence for neurodiversity.

Psychiatrists pick and choose traits and symptoms and label them, but they use a kinder gentler word than the word pathology. That's part of the reason we no longer see the word's psychopath or sociopath in diagnostic manuals, disorder is not nearly as stigmatizing as pathology.



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18 Dec 2011, 11:19 pm

Angel_ryan wrote:
I hope this is suppose to be funny because the NTs I do chose to spend time with don't fit most of that criteria :?
There are some annoying/mean NTs, but no one can be accurately pathologised, not even Aspies. There's a point you get to in psychology where everything starts to sound a lot like BS.
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wv49RFo1ckQ[/youtube]
I wish I lived in a world where I didn't need to be diagnosed with AS because I wouldn't need it. I could be me and everyone else would be fine with it and I could thrive off my special talents.


You do realize that CCHR is a Scientology front organisation? just thought I'd mention that.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Citizens_Commission_on_Human_Rights


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fraac
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18 Dec 2011, 11:22 pm

Weird thing is I agree with Scientology about psychiatry. One of those is a truly dangerous cult, the other has Tom Cruise jumping on sofas.



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19 Dec 2011, 12:02 am

Nexus wrote:
You do realize that CCHR is a Scientology front organisation? just thought I'd mention that.

I'm not a scientologist and I don't care if the video is supported by scientologists it's the point they are trying to make that matters. Which is that labeling goes too far sometimes. I do benefit from having been labeled because I have access to supports, but there's a point where you start to see yourself and others as a label and it's like human nature is something that isn't special anymore. It's just sad to think of a world where everyone needs to have a label.



Niall
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19 Dec 2011, 3:00 am

Thanks for that Oghagday.

I'm not going to quote your entire post, but I would like to comment on some important aspects of it.

First, I do encounter, on a regular basis, a frightening number of individuals who do fit either the criteria I described (and it's not funny, and I and others I know do get hurt, which is what makes it pathological - brushing your teeth is not pathological, but systematically exploiting the vulnerable for personal gain is another matter), the current diagnostic cluster for ASPD or the proposed cluster for the DSM-V, or indeed all three, . except for the fact that the behaviour is socio-culturally normative.

Therein lies the problem - the behaviour is normative. If the behaviour is normative, then the behavioural cluster can be considered part of the typical range for my society (because otherwise it would not be normative).

This leads to two possibilities. The first, quite properly, is the argument from neurodiversity that this range is valuable at a social level. The second is that there is a large pool of individuals, at least in my experience, who appear to share a cluster of pathological (causing harm to themselves or others) behaviours in the general population who are hurting those more vulnerable than they are.

In either case there is a problem that needs to be addressed, for everyone's benefit, not least ours. The neurodiverse range may have value, but not when someone else is getting hurt.

I'm pleased to learn that Angel Ryan does not share my experience. I also choose not to associate with those who have this cluster of behaviours, but I encounter them far too often - often enough that I think the behaviours are normal - that is, typical, and a result of their neurological background. That makes it a problem.