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underwater
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17 Nov 2017, 3:59 am

Interview with James Damore, an autistic engineer who was fired from Google over internal memo on gender differences.

It's really a cautionary tale for people on the spectrum. And the worst thing is, the guy seems really likeable, and not unlike a lot of WP members. Why didn't management just sit down and talk it out with him? Explain the consequences of that memo? This didn't have to snowball the way it did.

“Yeah, there’s definitely been some self-reflection,” he says. “Predicting controversies requires predicting what emotional reaction people will have to something. And that’s not something that I excel at – although I’m working on it.”

https://www.theguardian.com/technology/ ... sm-regrets


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ASPartOfMe
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17 Nov 2017, 7:23 pm

underwater wrote:
Interview with James Damore, an autistic engineer who was fired from Google over internal memo on gender differences.

It's really a cautionary tale for people on the spectrum. And the worst thing is, the guy seems really likeable, and not unlike a lot of WP members. Why didn't management just sit down and talk it out with him? Explain the consequences of that memo? This didn't have to snowball the way it did.

“Yeah, there’s definitely been some self-reflection,” he says. “Predicting controversies requires predicting what emotional reaction people will have to something. And that’s not something that I excel at – although I’m working on it.”

https://www.theguardian.com/technology/ ... sm-regrets


The combination of the current political climate and social media made it inventible it would snowball like it did. If Google did not fire him it would have faced employee walkouts, violent protests and cyber attacks.


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underwater
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18 Nov 2017, 2:02 am

ASPartOfMe wrote:
underwater wrote:
Interview with James Damore, an autistic engineer who was fired from Google over internal memo on gender differences.

It's really a cautionary tale for people on the spectrum. And the worst thing is, the guy seems really likeable, and not unlike a lot of WP members. Why didn't management just sit down and talk it out with him? Explain the consequences of that memo? This didn't have to snowball the way it did.

“Yeah, there’s definitely been some self-reflection,” he says. “Predicting controversies requires predicting what emotional reaction people will have to something. And that’s not something that I excel at – although I’m working on it.”

https://www.theguardian.com/technology/ ... sm-regrets


The combination of the current political climate and social media made it inventible it would snowball like it did. If Google did not fire him it would have faced employee walkouts, violent protests and cyber attacks.


Yeah, I guess you're right. He should really have showed that memo to someone before posting it to everybody.

It's really a good example about how 'high functioning' isn't as easy as people want to believe. This guy was doing great! Harvard, a nice job at Google....the kind of autistic person you don't see here in the Haven. Living that life, it's really easy to think you're really smart, that you understand stuff other people don't understand.

One weakness I see in myself and others is that the extreme ability to identify patterns means that it's easy to overestimate one's ability to understand a field one is not educated in. Also, the tendency to literal interpretation can make us unaware of how certain terms are given a different meaning in different professional fields - or we forget that others don't have the same knowledge we have.


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ASPartOfMe
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18 Nov 2017, 4:18 am

underwater wrote:
ASPartOfMe wrote:
underwater wrote:
Interview with James Damore, an autistic engineer who was fired from Google over internal memo on gender differences.

It's really a cautionary tale for people on the spectrum. And the worst thing is, the guy seems really likeable, and not unlike a lot of WP members. Why didn't management just sit down and talk it out with him? Explain the consequences of that memo? This didn't have to snowball the way it did.

“Yeah, there’s definitely been some self-reflection,” he says. “Predicting controversies requires predicting what emotional reaction people will have to something. And that’s not something that I excel at – although I’m working on it.”

https://www.theguardian.com/technology/ ... sm-regrets


The combination of the current political climate and social media made it inventible it would snowball like it did. If Google did not fire him it would have faced employee walkouts, violent protests and cyber attacks.


Yeah, I guess you're right. He should really have showed that memo to someone before posting it to everybody.

It's really a good example about how 'high functioning' isn't as easy as people want to believe. This guy was doing great! Harvard, a nice job at Google....the kind of autistic person you don't see here in the Haven. Living that life, it's really easy to think you're really smart, that you understand stuff other people don't understand.

One weakness I see in myself and others is that the extreme ability to identify patterns means that it's easy to overestimate one's ability to understand a field one is not educated in. Also, the tendency to literal interpretation can make us unaware of how certain terms are given a different meaning in different professional fields - or we forget that others don't have the same knowledge we have.


People, do not criticize your employer or go against thier core values publicly. Keep those thoughts to yourself.
Freedom of speech means the government can not prosecute Damore for what he said, he has no protection from bieng fired for it.

I find elements of Google’s “political correctness” odoius. If I worked there or was offered a job I would have to decide if bieng a sellout was worth the prestige and money that would come with being a Google employee. This type of decision is one of the hardest parts of bieng an adult. Unlike Damore for many the decision involves putting up with questionable or criminal business practices or risk havng your kids not fed and clothed right. What if you oppose on religious grounds people identifying as men going in womens bathooms and your company boycotts states that pass laws that agree with you, or you dispise Trump and your company gave a genorous contribution to his campaign? What if the CEO of your company said Autism is a bunch of hype used to justify spoiled brats but you really like your job and your fellow employees are nice people?

.


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jonny23
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18 Nov 2017, 5:11 pm

If I said that men are biologically better suited for work in moving companies would that make me a misogynist or just someone who observed that men are generally stronger than women? Does my statement mean I think that woman cannot work at moving companies? Does it mean I think all men are stronger women or that men are better than women? No, no and no.



ASPartOfMe
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18 Nov 2017, 7:47 pm

jonny23 wrote:
If I said that men are biologically better suited for work in moving companies would that make me a misogynist or just someone who observed that men are generally stronger than women? Does my statement mean I think that woman cannot work at moving companies? Does it mean I think all men are stronger women or that men are better than women? No, no and no.


It means you might be publicly shamed and cyber attacked and fired.


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XenoMind
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18 Nov 2017, 8:19 pm

ASPartOfMe wrote:
People, do not criticize your employer or go against thier core values publicly.

I read that memo, and the author did none of that. In fact, the author promotes diversity.
The problem is not in the memo, the problem is in feminists. They gone bonkers.



Last edited by XenoMind on 18 Nov 2017, 8:23 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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18 Nov 2017, 8:21 pm

ASPartOfMe wrote:
It means you might be publicly shamed and cyber attacked and fired.

Lynched, to put it clearly. They don't hang people yet, but I don't think that this is very far in the future.



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18 Nov 2017, 8:50 pm

ASPartOfMe wrote:
jonny23 wrote:
If I said that men are biologically better suited for work in moving companies would that make me a misogynist or just someone who observed that men are generally stronger than women? Does my statement mean I think that woman cannot work at moving companies? Does it mean I think all men are stronger women or that men are better than women? No, no and no.


It means you might be publicly shamed and cyber attacked and fired.


Just another Tuesday :lol:



billegge
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18 Nov 2017, 8:59 pm

I think this is an example of american culture avoiding any kind of moralistic judgment of others, whether that judgment is right or wrong is not the point.

James Damore may be correct, he simply needs to tie the 2 together to prove it. It is a hypothesis with no contradiction but is not yet proven. However James was not fired over a hypothesis, he was fired for violating cultural conformity. This is the essence of a forming dictatorship.

I just hope James does not say he is sorry like most others why defy the masses.



Amaltheia
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18 Nov 2017, 9:55 pm

ASPartOfMe wrote:
People, do not criticize your employer or go against thier core values publicly.


Interesting to note that the people who responded to Damore with (from the linked Guardian article) “You’re a misogynist and a terrible human. I will keep hounding you until one of us is fired. f**k you.” and “I intend to silence these views. They are violently offensive.” weren't fired. Apparently publicly expressing such sentiments and making threats is considered completely consistent with Google's core values.

My favorite, though, is “It has cost me at least two days of productivity and anger, and I am not even the target of its bigoted attacks”. Someone just admits that they hadn't done a lick of work for two days and that seems fine with their employer.



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18 Nov 2017, 10:05 pm

I liked this one most:

Quote:
I certainly couldn’t assign any women to deal with this, a good number of the people you might have to work with may simply punch you in the face

So, they're already threatening people with violence.



Amaltheia
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19 Nov 2017, 1:48 am

XenoMind wrote:
So, they're already threatening people with violence.

Well, to be fair, the article says:
Quote:
Google also vigorously promotes a culture of “psychological safety” among its staff, believing it imperative that employees feel empowered to voice ideas without feeling embarrassed or judged.

They only promote "psychological safety”, not physical safety or economic safety. So people who express any views the company doesn't like — no matter how well sourced and referenced — can be beaten up and/or fired for it, but Google will not tolerate anyone saying something that makes them feel bad about saying it.

Also, since autism is a neurological condition, not a psychological one despite being in the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders (DSM), published by the American Psychiatric Association, it obviously wouldn't be covered by any commitment to "psychological safety". So, no neurological safety either.

Very narrow and precise definition of safety.



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19 Nov 2017, 2:12 am

I think I remember that article. Lot of people were mad about it and I think it created angry comments here too.


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19 Nov 2017, 2:24 am

XenoMind wrote:
ASPartOfMe wrote:
People, do not criticize your employer or go against thier core values publicly.

I read that memo, and the author did none of that. In fact, the author promotes diversity.
The problem is not in the memo, the problem is in feminists. They gone bonkers.


That was not my point. My point is that it does not matter one bit if you are right and your employer is wrong. If you go public with it you probably will be looking for another job.

Google core value is not diversity of opinion. He went against it.


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