Lancet Report: Momentum builds toward breaking up of ASD

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Rotter
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17 Dec 2021, 6:07 pm

Nades wrote:
I think there needs to be some distinction. The obvious one is IQ. Executive functions aside, IQ is the ultimate deciding factor.

IQ is misleading. For example, I have low IQ but fall into the so-called "high-functioning" category anyway, and people usually view my work as intelligent, provided it's work in an area that I have skills in. On some tasks, I can outperform more than half of the people in Mensa, but I can't get into Mensa because my IQ is too low.

A bunch of people who say racism or discrimination is bad still engage in discrimination anyway, and don't even realize it. When people say that anyone with an IQ of 60 or 70 is "intellectually disabled" or unintelligent, then they're engaging in discrimination, almost as bad as racism.

These are the same people who say that racism against "black people" is very bad. They say this, but then the very next day, they say that someone must be "intellectually disabled" because he or she received a low IQ score. So, people opposed to racism may still be racist or rather prejudiced.

I agree with IsabellaLinton:
IsabellaLinton wrote:
My main question about the article is that it equates "profound autism" with a low IQ. IQ isn't in the diagnostic criteria for autism, so I don't understand why a person considered lower functioning will need to have lower intelligence. There are many ways or reasons why a person could be "lower functioning" in terms of the diagnostic criteria for autism, and none of these are related to traditional IQ tests.



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17 Dec 2021, 6:53 pm

Rotter wrote:
Nades wrote:
I think there needs to be some distinction. The obvious one is IQ. Executive functions aside, IQ is the ultimate deciding factor.

IQ is misleading. For example, I have low IQ but fall into the so-called "high-functioning" category anyway, and people usually view my work as intelligent, provided it's work in an area that I have skills in. On some tasks, I can outperform more than half of the people in Mensa, but I can't get into Mensa because my IQ is too low.

A bunch of people who say racism or discrimination is bad still engage in discrimination anyway, and don't even realize it. When people say that anyone with an IQ of 60 or 70 is "intellectually disabled" or unintelligent, then they're engaging in discrimination, almost as bad as racism.

These are the same people who say that racism against "black people" is very bad. They say this, but then the very next day, they say that someone must be "intellectually disabled" because he or she received a low IQ score. So, people opposed to racism may still be racist or rather prejudiced.

I agree with IsabellaLinton:
IsabellaLinton wrote:
My main question about the article is that it equates "profound autism" with a low IQ. IQ isn't in the diagnostic criteria for autism, so I don't understand why a person considered lower functioning will need to have lower intelligence. There are many ways or reasons why a person could be "lower functioning" in terms of the diagnostic criteria for autism, and none of these are related to traditional IQ tests.


IQ may not be under the diagnostic criteria but maybe it should be

If nearly 50% of autistic people have an IQ below average and 30% intellectual disability that is a very strong link not just a random coincidence. The fact that it’s not in the diagnosis criteria just speaks of how poorly it’s drawn up and the failure of the DSM.

Also you may fall into the low IQ group as you say but you probably don’t have profound autism or you wouldn’t be able to write the above.


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Rotter
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17 Dec 2021, 7:18 pm

carlos55 wrote:
If nearly 50% of autistic people have an IQ below average and 30% intellectual disability ...

That's a racist comment, or rather a prejudiced/discriminatory comment. As I said in my previous message:

Rotter wrote:
When people say that anyone with an IQ of 60 or 70 is "intellectually disabled" or unintelligent, then they're engaging in discrimination, almost as bad as racism.


I said that, and IMMEDIATELY after my message, you replied with a comment that describes low IQ people as having an "intellectual disability".

So, in your opinion, is prejudice good or bad? You engaged in prejudice immediately after I described the issue of prejudice. I'm sure you did it accidentally, and I'm sure you have good intentions, but nevertheless it's still prejudice.



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17 Dec 2021, 7:24 pm

I guess this autistic student is in the high IQ group
https://www.news.com.au/lifestyle/paren ... 263beb26f9

According to the father “Our journey started 15 years ago when my son was told by the paediatrician that he’ll never go to a mainstream school. “We never thought we’d get to this position, we never thought we’d get him through school,” he said.



Rotter
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17 Dec 2021, 7:31 pm

cyberdad wrote:
I guess this autistic student is in the high IQ group

No. The article says a high VCE score, and says nothing about any IQ tests. The VCE test is vastly different to any IQ test. There is insufficient information in the article to draw any conclusions about what score the son might receive if he does an IQ test from one of the IQ test providers.



Last edited by Rotter on 17 Dec 2021, 7:32 pm, edited 1 time in total.

IsabellaLinton
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17 Dec 2021, 7:32 pm

carlos55 wrote:
Also you may fall into the low IQ group as you say but you probably don’t have profound autism or you wouldn’t be able to write the above.


I didn't say I fall into a low IQ group. My nonverbal and my adaptive functioning are extremely low but that doesn't affect my IQ. IQ isn't even in the diagnostic criteria for Autism. Sure, many autistic people might have low IQ as a separate condition, but that's no different than the fact many of us might have depression / anxiety or other comorbids along with Autism.



Rotter
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17 Dec 2021, 7:46 pm

IsabellaLinton -- Actually I think he meant I'm the one with the "intellectual disability", not you, because I'm so bad at IQ tests. That was the accidental implication in his message.

But he didn't mean it. He had good intentions. It's just a type of prejudice/discrimination that people commonly engage in.

"He's black, therefore he must be intellectually disabled."
=
"He received a low IQ score, therefore he must be intellectually disabled."


It also occurs in the form of positive prejudice such as:
"He received a high IQ score, therefore he must be very intelligent."
=
A nice compliment but still prejudicial and ultimately harmful to people.



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17 Dec 2021, 7:49 pm

Rotter wrote:
IsabellaLinton -- Actually I think he meant I'm the one with the "intellectual disability", not you, because I'm so bad at IQ tests. That was the accidental implication in his message.

But he didn't mean it. He had good intentions. It's just a type of prejudice/discrimination that people commonly engage in.

"He's black, therefore he must be intellectually disabled."
=
"He received a low IQ score, therefore he must be intellectually disabled."


It also occurs in the form of positive prejudice such as:
"He received a high IQ score, therefore he must be very intelligent."
=
A nice compliment but still prejudicial and ultimately harmful to people.


Ah, thanks for pointing that out. I'm half asleep, didn't read the whole exchange, and saw my name.

I agree with you though. It's a common misunderstanding that our IQ is a) measurable on tests and b) related to our functioning abilities with Autism.

Cheers!



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17 Dec 2021, 8:02 pm

Rotter wrote:
cyberdad wrote:
I guess this autistic student is in the high IQ group

No. The article says a high VCE score, and says nothing about any IQ tests. The VCE test is vastly different to any IQ test. There is insufficient information in the article to draw any conclusions about what score the son might receive if he does an IQ test from one of the IQ test providers.


You completely missed the point.

The "gist" of the article is the boy was born low functioning with no hope (according to paediatrician) of living a normal life.

Fast forward 17 years and he's the top highschool student in the state of New South Wales. It's kind of a no-brainer that his IQ is in the genius range to be the top student out of 1 million students sitting university entrance exams.

So to people who seem enthusiastic about breaking up ASD into discrete little groups forget the supposed distance between ID and genius isn't as cut and dry with autism.

Not that I care about labels anyway



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17 Dec 2021, 8:18 pm

IsabellaLinton wrote:
It's a common misunderstanding that our IQ is a) measurable on tests and b) related to our functioning abilities with Autism.

Yes, and even if it was measurable, should we just give up on children and stop trying to help them just because they failed some IQ test from some IQ test provider? Of course not. So many people get so stuck on the labels that they forget that the treatment/therapy is far more important than the label. The label doesn't really matter. Children should be assisted regardless of whether they're labelled "aspergers", "autistic", "profound autistic", or "neurotypical".

All neurotypical children also have serious disabilities, but in a different way than autistic children. Both neurotypical and autistic should be assisted to the maximum ability to help them overcome their disabilities. We're all "retards". All humans are retards. All of us. That's the real world. Therefore, every single student in a school should be assisted in the way that is most effective for him/her, depending on what kind of disability he or she has. Children without disabilities only exist in fantasy wa-wa land.

In the article that was mentioned, Alison Singer wrote:
Alison Singer wrote:
Anyone who thinks autism isn’t a disability should spend a day with my daughter.

Anyone who thinks neurotypical isn't a disability should spend a month with a bunch of neurotypicals. Really listen to what a bunch of neurotypicals say over the course of a month. They say outright crazy and irrational things as if it's perfectly normal and acceptable. They're bonkers. They're really bonkers. BOTH neurotypical and neurodivergent people have serious disabilities and need serious assistance -- in different ways, as suits each individual adult or child.



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17 Dec 2021, 8:22 pm

Rotter wrote:
Anyone who thinks neurotypical isn't a disability should spend a month with a bunch of neurotypicals. Really listen to what a bunch of neurotypicals say over the course of a month. They say outright crazy and irrational things as if it's perfectly normal and acceptable. They're bonkers. They're really bonkers. BOTH neurotypical and neurodivergent people have serious disabilities and need serious assistance -- in different ways, as suits each individual adult or child.


NTs are able to function independently and the majority express themselves (approximately) socially the same way. What you are trying to express is a venn-diagram and NTs are in the biggest circle.



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17 Dec 2021, 8:24 pm

cyberdad wrote:
It's kind of a no-brainer that his IQ is in the genius range to be the top student out of 1 million students sitting university entrance exams.

No. That's an example of the "positive prejudice" I mentioned. The article says a high VCE score, and says nothing about any IQ tests. The VCE test is vastly different to any IQ test. There is insufficient information in the article to draw any conclusions about what score the son might receive if he does an IQ test from one of the IQ test providers.

Also, high IQ doesn't mean "genius". Geniuses don't exist in real life. They only exist in Hollywood and enjoyable fiction novels.

cyberdad wrote:
NTs are able to function independently

Right, their disability is in other areas, not in the area of living independently.



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17 Dec 2021, 8:33 pm

Rotter wrote:
cyberdad wrote:
It's kind of a no-brainer that his IQ is in the genius range to be the top student out of 1 million students sitting university entrance exams.

No. That's an example of the "positive prejudice" I mentioned. The article says a high VCE score, and says nothing about any IQ tests. The VCE test is vastly different to any IQ test. There is insufficient information in the article to draw any conclusions about what score the son might receive if he does an IQ test from one of the IQ test providers.
Also, high IQ doesn't mean "genius". Geniuses don't exist in real life. They only exist in Hollywood and enjoyable fiction novels.


I think you are avoiding the obvious. There is almost a 100% probability that MENSA students sat the exams and the fact he out performed them would be a strong indicator his IQ > MENSA students

To get an ATAR you need to sit 6-7 exams covering English, Math, science and other electives. ATAR is strongly correlated with IQ and his global intelligence must be in the MENSA range.



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17 Dec 2021, 8:33 pm

Rotter wrote:
Right, their disability is in other areas, not in the area of living independently.


What areas? I'm NT so I'm curious



Rotter
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17 Dec 2021, 8:44 pm

The article says:

Alison Singer wrote:
A group of very high-functioning people were called upon to represent autism at policy tables and in the media.

That comment is an example of a classic problem that many NT people suffer from. NT's and autistic people interpret the above quite differently. The NT interpretation is incorrect.

NT's tend to interpret it as if it means "High-functioning autistic people represented the topic of autism, therefore obviously they must have only represented their own self-interests."

In contrast, autistic people tend to interpret it literally. It means only what it says. The quote says that high-functioning people were present. It says nothing about what those people said or wanted.

Who is correct in this case? Clearly the autistic interpretation is the correct interpretation.

Neurotypicals constantly make mistakes like this. Neurotypical communication skills are frequently very weak, especially when discussing problems. They can hardly communicate at all when it comes to discussing problems. Sometimes it's really like trying to communicate with cats and dogs. They just don't have the necessary communication machinery in their brains.

So yes, autism is a serious disability, but neurotypical is also a serious disability. If neurotypicals claim they have no disabilities and only the autistic people are disabled, then it's equivalent to saying "Black people are disabled". It's just like racism.



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17 Dec 2021, 8:48 pm

Rotter wrote:
NT's tend to interpret it as if it means "High-functioning autistic people represented the topic of autism, therefore obviously they must have only represented their own self-interests."


How exactly is this wrong?