weight loss and its issues

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well.... men and women BOTH get on each other's backs about stuff like this. your use of the word "nag" is highly gendered, actually.

you're confirming something very important: when men tell women they should lose weight, it is... concern for their health. if women tell men to stop drinking... it's nagging.

Last edited by hyperlexian on 16 Jul 2012, 3:45 am, edited 1 time in total.

http://bja.oxfordjournals.org/content/85/1/91.full

Some nice little snippits:

Just to show everyone that our side has science at it's back too.

people with those same genetics DID have obesity problems 50 years ago, Shau. there were fat people back then . nobody is arguing ALL fat people have genetic issues, only SOME do. so you seem to be misreading the posts. maybe go back and read the actual content?

in one of the articles i posted, it was shown that obese people have differences in their brains. the scientists are still uncertain as to whether the changes happened before or after they gained the weight. besides, we were not talking about how people gain the weight, we were talking about the difficulties in getting the weight off.

i'll reiterate that if people want to have a partner who looks after their health, and they also want to look after their partner's health, all the power to them. just make sure that it happens in a balanced manner (i.e. they get to push you in the way they think is best) and that there is clarity regarding your intention to behave that way.

a partner would likely be mighty angry at someone who dismissed all health advice yet got on their partner to lose weight.

for myself, i wouldn't ever tolerate a partner like that, obviously. nor would i treat a partner like that.

A lot lot LOT less of them, yes.



I know.



I never argued that point. My point is that for most of them, the problem is their diet and lack of exercise, but most of them cling to the belief that it's not their fault when it is (Note here, I'm not judging them! We all have our problems). It is an unfortunate truth that some individuals got shafted during Darwin's Lotto in that regard, however.



The vast majority of people who are failing to lose weight are doing so because they're not doing it right. There's really just not enough evidence to suggest that all of these problems are the major contributors. The preponderance of evidence is, and continues to be, that people are overweight because they are eating too many calories, and not getting enough exercise. Of course, research continues, and I may end up singing a different tune in a few years.

no, people usually have no problem at all losing weight. they have problems keeping it off.

but anyways, if they are fat and happy (and possibly even fat and healthy), it's not your place to care.

i think it is a good idea for people to get exercise and eat healthy food. thankfully, people can still be obese and yet become healthy when they do those things, so they don't need to focus on weight loss in order to be in top shape.

Actually, it is. In my country, our healthcare is quite socialized, and obese people have a whole slew of risk factors associated with them. Smokers, obese people, and the drunks take the biggest toll on our country in terms of healthcare costs, which the government yanks out of EVERYONE's paycheck.

So don't speak so soon about it not being my business. My money is my business. Yes, your smoking is also my business, as are your drunken habits, esp when you decide to take them onto the road.

Ok, I will for the sake of brevity just accept this one for now. Why is it that these people simply cannot deal with the extra calories by doing exercise? You can eat as much cake and ice cream as you want, so long as you run that ass off a bit afterwards to burn them calories.

no, you are incorrect - obesity doesn't cost money. it's a correlation and not a cause and effect. fat people can be just as healthy as thin people, in fact. so you are judging the wrong aspect - you are looking at people are deciding what their health might be like but you actually don't have a clue.

http://thesocietypages.org/socimages/20 ... in-people/

it is only a health advantage to be thin if you are sitting on your butt and eating bonbons all day. otherwise, it's not really protective.

an interesting fact - if you are an aspie, then actually YOU are costing the taxpayers money.


it's hard to keep weight off because it requires more willpower (and more exercise) for a once-fat person to maintain a steady weight than it would take for a never-fat person to maintain that same weight. i seem to recall i said this3 times already in this conversation.

When a guy does it I call it "bugging." I could use that term for both genders but I don't see that it makes much difference really. They're both the same. But if it really bothers you I could use either nagging or bugging for both. Or swap them; might have more impact that way, actually.

I never said anything about concern for health, that was a different poster. The closest I came was to say that I considered getting hassled for some of these things to be "help" or a "kick in the pants" that I considered useful, and in context, I was the recipient, and I'm male; in other words, I consider it annoying but "necessary sometimes, at least for me"

And then I mentioned that an excess of "this sort of thing" (by which I meant both phenomenon, or the one phenomenon that is really the same thing) was counterproductive and breeds resentment.

"Concern" was a word I only used in reference to a term you used earlier, "concern trolling", which essentially means bugging someone about stuff like this, and is at least as uncomplimentary as bugging, nagging, hassling, etc, if not moreso. That was in reference to distinguishing between good intent and bad; a distinction summed up nicely by that term, and detectable by the previously mentioned state of being excessive and counterproductive.

And yes, we both bug each other about this stuff, but women tend to bug men a bit more, for the simple reason that men tend to be the ones who are more likely to not visit the doctor, use the computer too much, eat fast food, drink too much, go walking late at night, not wash their hands after using the toilet, etc

Yep, been fat before. Was 230lbs at 5'9 at one point, so...that'd be what...a 34 BMI? Pretty not fun. After I started basically cooking my food myself and going out with people more, I dropped to 215 or 210 at 5'9. After that I started ice skating, and it ended up becoming a bit of an Aspie obsession of mine, and with that and some dieting (to a point a bit eating disorderish dieting, aka always hungry) I dropped to 180lbs in about 4 months of skating and some punching bag work for extra cardio. Now I'm at 195, but most of the weight gained was muscle, and tonight I found out around an inch was apparently added to my height, so now I'm 5'10 it looks like. Yeah, I was really irritable and always tired all the time no matter what for the past few weeks, for no explicable reason, and I was also hungry like mad, like hungrier than I'd be after long sessions of lifting, even though I was just sitting on my computer doing nothing being too tired to lift. So, it looks like a 21 year old growth spurt. It might be partially triggered from lifting, too, I know a guy at my church, he went from 120lbs and 5'2 to 6'0 and 240 after high school, and I'm wondering if some of the height gain was triggered from powerlifting, he was a very good powerlifter, and doing that releases HGH. Hmm... So I guess for now I'm just gonna eat...a lot. And try to get as much sleep as I can, too. The transformation's been pretty cool, though, I guess you know you've done a good job when the facial recognition software at the DMV doesn't recognize you when you get your license picture retaken.

Basically, it comes down to how smart you are. You can try like hell and still be wrong, and your trying like hell is worthless. You have to go into the process of health with a real methodology, and really know yourself. Also, conventional wisdom, a lot of times...is wrong. Look at the recent controversies over trans fats and high fructose corn syrup for example. My dad in the 90s was talking about how bad hydrogenated oil was, and most people wrote off what he was saying as fear mongering or whatever, but now everyone else is on the bandwagon. So in a lot of ways, it takes research to sorta be one step ahead of everyone else. So even if you're not doing literal "work" you still have to really put some effort into researching nutrition and exercise. Me with NVLD, makes me sorta blessed in this regard, and I'm probably borderline hyperlexic (aha, your name...) so yeah. But, it's a wonder what a little research will do for helping you achieve your goals. I think another needed is a sense of self sufficiency, aka, Ayn Randism. I always like trying to figure out everything for myself, using my methods, etc, so I'll try different diet strategies and see what happens, just conduct experiments.

As far as genetics goes towards weight, let's talk about the somatoypes! The somatypes aren't the end all be all of weight related science, but I do think they're a good general guide of bodytypes.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Somatotype ... psychology
http://www.shapehealthfitness.com/sacra ... d-body.jpg

Usually nobody fits purely into those types, I'm pretty much a meso-endo. I have pretty much an endo lower body, and a meso upper body. I can gain muscle pretty easily, and I can gain, but also lose weight, relatively easy. I also eat a ton. So read the descriptions more of those types, a good indicator of bone structure is simply measure your wrists. Mine are a tad under 7 inches, but true bigger boned people will be like 8, and then smaller frame people are like 6 inches. So you can still be bigger framed and all that, but there's still a bodyfat level that's healthy and not. Also BMI is ret*d, and I think generally favors the ectomorph somatotype more, but it doesn't take into account muscle or bone weight, so just use bodyfat measurements to truly track your progress.


I'd tell her the vitamins and exercise were here before she was, and they'll be there after she leaves. In non-sarcastic terms, though, I'd hope to never get into a relationship with a partner like that. That's why your partner and you HAVE to be on the same page regarding food and exercise. I've gone over this in another thread, that's why I want a girl who can cook, and by extension eats reasonably healthy. How she looks is honestly more negotiable than that point. I've seen in my parents marriage the problems this can cause, and I never want to repeat that problem. Under my mom's "reign" of processed food, I got huge, I was fat, and miserable. I learned to cook all by myself, and in the beginning would even buy groceries with my allowance to have real food to cook. Even now, after years, there's still so many clashes with me and my mom nutritionally, and she doesn't understand how to take care of her own health, refuses most health advice I give her, and I a lot of times cannot buy adequate food and vitamins (compared to my dad who gave me very high quality vitamins and food even in elementary school.) I'm sorry I cannot see nutrition as a "little" issue, as it had so much effect on my life. The best comparison I can give is it's like having an alcoholic parent, you know the effect alcohol can have, and see it as a "big deal."

That said, there is a balance that has to be achieved. As in Wolfheart's case, NO, I'm not gonna be making no damned chocolate out of baby food and whey protein, or not eating fruit because I'm afraid of the evil sugar monsters or something. So this is where me and Wolfheart depart.
However I do expect a reasonable care taken about health. Yeah, sure, fast food and candy once in a while. Whatever. But there's a difference between once in a while for a treat and just letting your urges run wild. It's my opinion for the most people, 90% of "dieting" could be solved if they just ate real food cooked in their house, instead of processed crap, thus my insistence upon cooking (though you deleted one of my posts as a sexist joke, when I was quite serious.) And no, I don't expect my wife to be like 18% bodyfat or something for her whole life, but I also don't want her ballooning to 300lbs either. Balance, balance, balance.

Lots more I could post here, but yeah.

If that's so, then why have an entire government-hired panel of experts on the topic said the very exact opposite of what you just said? They've increased the tax on fatty foods here in NZ, in order to discourage people from eating it, cause they get fat and start having health problems.



Hmm, this could be correct. Too bad all of the fat people seem to want to sit on their butts all day. By all means, if you know of a great way to get the obese people out and active, go ahead and tell the New Zealand government what it is. They can and WILL be happy to hear of any successful solutions. Until then? Yes, they're costing the public tons of money, and the NZ government has tons of facts to back it up. They don't make these kind of decisions lightly.



This is incorrect. You would only cost the government money if you receive some kind of disability allowance, or special services for your condition, which I do not. Anything else is outside of my control and not of my doing.



Ok, perhaps this is true. Then I guess we should focus on stopping people from getting fat to begin with? Once again, you can have your cake and eat it too, just run that ass off afterwards.

Try eating more protein and saturated fat. Saturated fat, people are afraid of because of the old studies, but the human body has had much more time to adapt to saturated fat, and besides a few oils like olive oil, it's the only fat you can get naturally in your diet. Soybean oil for example, is usually extracted with solvents, same with corn. Again, it doesn't work for everyone, just as high carb diets don't work good for everyone, but it's something to try, saturated fat definitely keeps you full feeling for a longer time, same with protein, and extra protein is always good, I'm always running a bit protein deficient and hate it.

As far as taste alone, the best thing you can do is learn to use spices. How to season your food correctly is a large large part of cooking. Cooking in general is a really good hobby, now I've gotten to be so good that I feel like I cook better than most restaurants I go to, at least American ones selling burgers, etc. But, spices are your best friend, they add a ton of flavor, and no calories at all. Also, if you like international food, definitely learn to cook ethnic dishes, very good for you, most of that stuff. Basically there will come a point in cooking where you'll be able to emulate restaurant food in your house. As far as time for cooking, well, here's what I think. It's expected if you're in good health, to take a shower, brush your teeth, generally be hygienic. So cooking is just another one of life's things you have to make time for, like brushing your teeth, showering, etc.

All that many of you have said may be good and true, but as I have said before, I have seen many say, while in a relationship, they done all they can and still gain.

but once out of the comfort of their relationships they actually get out and make them selves lose weight just to make them selves more attractive so they can attract a new mate. only to gain it back again after getting into a new one. be the reasons they mentioned for the gain medical or not.

if they can do that then they can focus on keeping it off while in a relationship.

As for right or wrong, consider that they had to lose the weight in the first place to attract the mate. so of course there are preferences and expectations in and out of relationships.

If my wife gains weight I'm gonna look like Andy Bolton then.

Yep, it's true. Even in a country like the US where health industry is not socialized, it still costs the insured a fortune to treat people with bad habits through a rise in premiums, less coverage for money paid, and a rise in co pays, too.
Another contributing factor is violence. In a country with a lot of violence, it drives up the price of health care. People do not realize, every time someone is injured in a fight or because of a stabbing or shooting, they have to get it treated by a doctor. This is something they wouldn't ordinarily do if it were not for the violence. Doing something about the violent culture is another way to save healthcare dollars.