weight loss and its issues

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who would lose a weight? people who lift weights to the degree that they end up losing them (by what manner i can not imagine) should probably relax and let some nutrients into their brains.

I personally can't see any benefit to me losing weight other than not having to buy new clothes if I get too fat. It could go the other way too. If I were to lose enough weight to be the same weight as in my late teens or early 20s I'd need all new pants because the ones I have would fall off me.

... because the decision-making arm of the government is not staffed by doctors and researchers.

you are going too far by stating that all of the fat people want to sit on their butts all day. evidently the truth about the situation (that obese people can be healthy and often ARE healthy) is lost on you because you'd prefer to hate on them. i get it. so i won't be discussing it further with you.

and i see that you proved my point about costs - aspies would only cost the health care system money if they needed special service. obese people only cost money if they get sick with something that is correlated to their obesity. same as aspies. you are assuming that all obese people cost money simply because of their body size, but that is no more accurate than all aspies costing money because of a diagnosis.

fact is, unhealthy thin (or average or overweight) people cost as much money per person as unhealthy obese people.

Your argument is pretty much burying your head in the sand. We're fatter than at any point in history, and you're just going "OH NO EVERYTHING IS FINE." Whatever.

so what if we are fat? as long as people are healthy, it doesn't matter. it makes sense for the government to promote good health in terms of exercise and healthy food, but it does not make sense to focus on obesity as the culprit. the fact of being obese is actually just a cosmetic fact.

C'mon, you must be trolling me now...I just said that the government put together a board of experts on the matter, that means scientists, to help them make this decision. Please tell me you're just trolling me a bit now....



Lady, you are getting WAY TOO EMOTIONAL over this. I have in no way tried to place any kind of judgement on fat people, or try to hate them in any way. You're the one assigning me these kind of intentions. The fact that you think I hate fat people at all is proof of this. You are obv incapable of debating this properly, as you let your emotions take over. I have stated clearly and unambiguously that my primary concern with fat people is the healthcare costs they drain from my paycheck, and the fact that I'd prefer not to date any of them. I'm sorry you cannot seem to understand this, how many times can I say things like "I don't judge fat people, we all have our problems, I just think fat people themselves are (for the most part) the cause of that particular one of theirs" before you'll realize that? f*****g Christ.

Yes, this debate is done, because I do not debate with such irrationality. For the record.......

The NZ government hired a bunch of sociologists to study the lifestyle habits of obese people in New Zealand, and the results? DING DING DING, most of them were SEDENTARY. They were NOT active, or making healthy lifestyle choices. SIMPLE FACT. It does not matter that obese people can be otherwise healthy if they make healthy choices, cause the fat people in this country are not doing that and we have the facts to back it up.

You have issues, lady.

[edit] If you want, have yourself a nice crawl through the government's very own website.

http://www.health.govt.nz/search/results/obesity

You are incorrect in thinking that obesity (in terms of size and weight) alone does not cost money.

Hospitals have to buy specialised equipment, such as larger and stronger beds and wheelchairs, and hoists for lifting people. There are costs in transporting patients to other locations which have, for example, MRI scanners which can accommodate obese individuals. Alternatively, a hospital can find the extra money to buy a scanner and treat obese individuals locally. Ambulance services have to bear the cost of adapting their vehicles to accommodate obese individuals and providing specialised equipment. There are additional staffing costs as it takes more people safely, and with dignity, to turn an obese person in their bed, for example, or to move them. For an obese person to bathe may require that baths or showers have to be specially fitted.

All of these costs are a result of the size of the individual. If two otherwise healthy individuals end up in hospital because they suffered injuries as a result of an accident, an obese individual will cost the health sevice more than someone who is smaller and lighter.

If these hypothetical injuries are fatal, then there additional costs associated with the funeral and burial or cremation of an obese individual. Again the costs relate directly to the person's size and weight and include the costs of specialised equipment (at funeral parlours, mortuaries, crematoria and cemeteries), and additional staff required to move and lift the corpse. Most crematoria were built when people were smaller than they are now, and so families may have to arrange for a funeral at some distance from their local church or crematorium. If they would prefer to hold the funeral locally, they could opt for a burial, but there will be additional costs here for staff and equipment.

Health services, ambulance services, and many crematoria and cemeteries are publicly funded in Scotland, so obese individuals do cost the tax payer money, and they cause the diversion of money which could be used to fund other services.

It may be that the discussion started as about how hard it is to lose excess weight. I don't doubt that it is hard. I believe, as does my government - supported by medical professionals and academics - that it is better to avoid weight gain in the first place.

An extreme example of how much obesity can cost is provided by the unfortune case of Georgia Davis, a young Welsh woman, who earlier this year had to go to hospital. She was so big that walls of her house had to be demolished and a bridge constructed from house to road to get her into the ambulance. This took several hours, and involved a team of 40 people from the Council, Fire and Rescue and Ambulance Services. The cost, to the public, of this is estimated at no less than £100,000, and was a direct consequence of her obesity.

Except that people aren't healthy. Not only has obesity gone up, many "diseases of civilization" such as diabetes and autoimmune disease have gone up. I don't think these diseases are caused by obesity, as it is so often framed. I think there is a larger underlying ill-health in many people that comes from our way of life and of which obesity is just one of and not the only symptom. It often gets framed as eat-too-much/move-too-little>>>>obesity>>>>>other health problems such as diabetes, hypertension, auto-immune disease. Framing it that way makes it seem as though these diseases are a direct consequnce of the obesity which is a direct consequence of too little exercise and too much food. However, autoimmune disease, diabetes , hypertension etc, are also rising in thin people. Our way of life leads to many symptoms (diseases) opf which obesity is just one. It happens to be the one which is vilified as a moral defect and that isn't true, but it shouldn't be accepted as harmless simply because it isn't a moral defect. It's the canary in the coalmine. A symptom of a deeper underlying health problem.

We need to get back to the way we used to eat and move. We don't have to go all the way back to Paleo times (although the Paleo diet has served me well and many others too). Going back a mere hundred years would be enough. We really are being slowly killed by processed food. This isn't Fatties vs. Thinnies. It's all of us vs. giant food corporations.

Agreed. Processed food is not good. Every time they come up with a new "natural" zero calorie energy drink or the new protein rich, non fat, Ensure, I remind myself fruits and vegetables do the same thing only they are healthier.

This is probably the most sensible post for the last several pages of this thread....

The problem is defined exactly as:

[eat too much] + [move too little] = [lazy good for nothing fat-ass].

It’s simple.

People like it because in a world where you can’t be racist or sexist anymore, it gives them a target to vent their spleen upon… The only problem is that this definition is false.

Since New Zealanders hire Sociologists to study obesity, I wonder if they hire Ball Room Dance Instructors to design their power plants?

It would make about as much sense…

If they’d hired nutritionists, or endocrinologists, or, hell, even a good vet, they’d know that people can be obese, malnourished, and chronically fatigued ALL AT THE SAME TIME.

In Gary Taubes’ book, he references a study done on rats… Two groups of rats had an area of their brain that controls hormone production removed.

The first group of rats was allowed to eat as much as they liked. These rats, ate too much, became very obese, but otherwise behaved like normal rats.

The second group of rats had a highly restricted diet. These rats ate no more than their skinny neighbors, THEY STILL GOT VERY FAT, but THEY WERE SEDENTARY because they were being starved of energy as their bodies used all the food to make fat.

In another study similarly modified obese rats were starved to death. These rats died obese because their bodies decided to breakdown their organs rather than burn fat.

All this was done by playing with the rat’s hormones.




Why are humans the only animals judged morally defective when they become obese?

If your greyhound becomes obese and you take him to the vet, does the vet react by telling you that the dog is just fat because he’s lazy and weak willed?

Not if he’s competent!

If he’s competent he’ll look for signs of disease, or hormone imbalance. The vet knows that greyhounds do not regulate their weight by willpower diet and exercise. They do it unconsciously--biochemically with enzymes, and hormones.

Why are dogs and other animals special?

Why do they get automatic weight regulation while humans must regulate their weight by hand? … and only the morally superior ones get skinny?


Damn. Too bad humans got morals instead of hormones.

Obesity is just a matter of too many calories going in.

That statement is obvious and unhelpful.



Taking too many calories in is a symptom of hormone imbalance. In humans it tends to be chronically high insulin levels.

In my dog, it happened when the vet cut his balls off.

PS

It goes like this:

The wrong combination of food and hormones causes your body to store fat rather than make energy. Due to lack of energy your body gets hungry and you eat. The wrong combination of food and hormones causes your body to store fat rather than make energy. Due to lack of energy your body gets hungry and you eat. The wrong combination of food and hormones causes your body to store fat rather than make energy. Due to lack of energy your body gets hungry and you eat. The wrong combination of food and hormones causes your body to store fat rather than make energy. Due to lack of energy your body gets hungry and you eat. The wrong combination of food and hormones causes your body to store fat rather than make energy. Due to lack of energy your body gets hungry and you eat. The wrong combination of food and hormones causes your body to store fat rather than make energy. Due to lack of energy your body gets hungry and you eat.

and so on.

I would show her the door.

exactly. so you should not presume to talk to her about her weight, either.

i actually was agreeing that people definitely should be active and eat healthy. i just don't think an obese person should be automatically judged to be an unhealthy person at face value.

uhhhh most obese people don't fall in the extreme category like that, so you are speaking in ridiculous hyperbole. there are people who are so thin that they need to be wheeled around in a wheelchair (aka "specialised equipment"), and people who are so tall that they need special caskets.
your average obese person does not cost taxpayers any extra - it is unhealthy people who are costing extra money. thin people can be unhealthy, in case you were not aware.

do you argue that people should not drink alcohol? it costs taxpayers a great deal more than the health costs that people try to pin on obese people, yet alcohol drinkers are rarely under discussion for their expensive habits on the forum.