weight loss and its issues

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edgewaters
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18 Jul 2012, 2:47 am

hyperlexian wrote:

interesting potential causes for the rise in obesity rates (all of these factors except one changed in recent times):
[list][*]regulated indoor temperatures
this one is interesting. as a child, my home and school were always colder - along with other people's houses - with the temperature set to 69'F to save money. now, every place is warmer in winter. and AC is much more common

I was thin as a whip up until I hit age 30, and although I'm not really overweight (being that I was underweight) I'm at the extreme limit of my ideal BMI and I've got a bit of a spare tire. Could be age but I actually eat less than I used to, better than I used to, and get more exercise. But around about then was when changing habits regarding heating and AC came into play for me.

Quote:

also interesting was the study he cited. children were divided into 2 groups for 3 years: one group ate as usual (badly) and got very little exercise as always; the other group started to eat 2 healthy meals a day at school and got the recommended exercise for their age group. the results: no reduction in BMI from the healthy group. this study was replicated with similar results. the surprised researchers were quick to blame the remaining meal and the unregulated time away from school, stating that more changes would need to be made in the children's lifestyle to effect weight loss. the jury is still out on that.

There won't be much followup. If the solutions don't involve lifestyle products, we won't hear about them. There's no one who is going to fund or publicize results like that.

Marcia
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18 Jul 2012, 4:36 am

hyperlexian wrote:

^^^you're cherrypicking which thinbs you want to consider "specialised", Marcia. many groups, including "little people" or elderly people, can require specialised equipment but people don't complain about the cost. how about the cost of teenagers who are allowed use ATVs/trampolines/snowmobiles? those are leading causes of accidents, yet are fully preventable. there is just no getting around the fact that EVERY group can cost extra money for the health care system if you view it the right way. just because some of the infrastructure was already in place doesn't make it any less of a "special" cost.

aspies and auties frequently have extra health problems and may need special guidance or therapy for mental health issues. those are also "specialised" services. and rates of autism are rising, so i suppose it is also an epidemic.

Ok, I'll keep this simple.

You said,

Quote:

obesity doesn't cost money. it's a correlation and not a cause and effect.

and

Quote:

obese people only cost money if they get sick with something that is correlated to their obesity . same as aspies. you are assuming that all obese people cost money simply because of their body size, but that is no more accurate than all aspies costing money because of a diagnosis.

fact is, unhealthy thin (or average or overweight) people cost as much money per person as unhealthy obese people.

I responded by saying,

Quote:

You are incorrect in thinking that obesity (in terms of size and weight) alone does not cost money.

I then provided examples of ways in which obesity does cost money.

I provided examples which illustrated the point I was making.

You are introducing irrelevancies.

hyperlexian
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18 Jul 2012, 4:40 am

obesity alone DOESN'T cost money, unless you're talking about the fact that every single group of people costs money in one way or another. health costs are expensive, and it's not relevant that average-weight people are already included in the budget. they cost money too.

there is nothing "irrelevant" in my point that every group, when isolated, costs special money.

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Marcia
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18 Jul 2012, 4:52 am

hyperlexian wrote:

You are not reading what I am saying, you are not thinking about this logically or objectively.

You are in denial.

Shau
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18 Jul 2012, 6:07 am

Marcia, quit while you're ahead.

Wikipedia wrote:

Whereas dyslexic children usually have poor word decoding abilities but average or above average reading comprehension skills, hyperlexic children excel at word decoding but often have poor reading comprehension abilities.

hyperlexian
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18 Jul 2012, 12:57 pm

Shau wrote:

Marcia, quit while you're ahead.

Wikipedia wrote:

i thought you were not going to argue with me anymore? so much for walking away. :lol:

my reading comprehension skills are fine. the problem appears to be that people will not accept that there is evidence that disproves their tightly-held beliefs.

Marcia, if you want to separate "obese people" and decide that they require specialised services, then any other group can be similarly seprated and examined for their financial impact... and they all cost money for services particular to their group. your logic fails.

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1000Knives
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18 Jul 2012, 1:36 pm

http://www.drhoffman.com/page.cfm/193

Quote:

Cardiovascular disease risk increases due to overweight elevating blood pressure, cholesterol, triglycerides, and increasing insulin resistance. The location of excess body fat can further increase CVD risk. Central obesity for example, is directly associated with an increased risk of heart disease. A 20% reduction in body weight can reduce CVD risk by 40%. This can be achieved by keeping BMI in the normal range. Over 50% of all cases of hypertension are simply due to being overweight.

The incidence of diabetes increases with increasing weight. Diabetes is three times more likely in obese individuals with a BMI of 28 or greater.

Osteoarthritis symptoms are worse in men and women with a BMI over 25. Excess body weight stresses joint cartilage.

Cancer risk can increase due to elevated hormones associated with obesity, influencing cancer development. Excess estrogen is linked with reproductive system cancers. Adipose tissue (fat tissue) is a major site of estrogen synthesis in women. Scientists link a BMI of 28 to 30 with an increase in cancer risk.

Other diseases associated with obesity include sleep apnea, abdominal hernias, varicose veins, gout, gall bladder disease, respiratory problems including pickwickian syndrome (a breathing blockage linked with sudden death), and liver malfunction.

Massive obesity, indicated by a BMI over 40, is so closely associated with health problems that it is regarded as a disease in its own right.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1434717/
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/11194020

Quote:

Association between obesity and conventional risk factors for coronary artery disease is well established. Obesity is currently considered an independent risk for coronary artery disease. The relationship between body mass index (BMI) and fasting plasma lipids and glucose and blood pressures in non-obese subjects is not established. The authors studied relationships between BMI and lipids, and glucose, and blood pressure levels in healthy a population. The authors measured the weights and heights of 3,615 employees of a company during a routine yearly health examination. There were 1,250 males aged 31.3 +/- 6.6 and 2,365 females aged 29.3 +/- 4.9 years old. The average BMI for males and females were 23.5 +/- 3.6 and 20.1 +/- 3.0 respectively. The levels of total cholesterol (Chol), LDL-cholesterol, and triglyceride (TG), fasting plasma glucose (FPG) had a positive relationship with BMI (r = 0.22, 0.26, 0.41, 0.20; p < 0.001). HLD-cholesterol had a negative correlation with BMI (r = -0.36, p < 0.001). Both systolic (SBP) and diastolic (DBP) blood pressures had a positive correlation with BMI. The association persisted after all values were adjusted by age and sex. BMI has a significant positive relationship with the conventional risk factors for coronary artery disease and a negative relationship with HDL-cholesterol.

I could point to you study after study saying you're wrong, and that there is a correlation with obesity and health problems, even if it is health problems in many cases causing the obesity.

Your argument is basically this. Smoking is OK, because some people can be healthy and smoke, so therefore smoking is not bad and there should be no societal pressure to not smoke. And hey, there's marathon runners who smoke, right? What's the big deal? Hey, that marathon runner/athlete smokes, so can I. Hell, look at lifespans in Japan, they smoke, and they live a long time. So why is smoking so bad? If I were to make arguments like that in favor of smoking, everyone would call me an idiot, because I would be an idiot. It's been well established now that smoking is negative for your health, and it's also been established that obesity is negative for your health.

hyperlexian
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18 Jul 2012, 1:38 pm

no.... that wasn't my argument at all. maybe go back and read my posts?

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hyperlexian
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18 Jul 2012, 1:40 pm

Quote:

In the last decade, research on these metabolically healthy obese individuals has ramped up. In 2001, Brochu and colleagues tested 43 obese, sedentary and post-menopausal women and found that 17 of them qualified as metabolically healthy. The key difference between the healthy and unhealthy groups? Where they stored their fat. Those who were healthy had half the visceral fat, or deep belly fat, of those who weren't. Other studies have shown that visceral fat, which packs around the organs in the abdomen, is more detrimental to the body than the subcutaneous fat found just beneath the skin.

17/43 is not the odd random individual who manages to be obese and healthy - it is nearly half.

edit, also this:

Quote:

There's no universal definition of metabolic health in obese people, but researchers estimate that between 25 percent and 30 percent of the obese have normal metabolic profiles. Now they're struggling to understand what that means. Why do some people resist packing on bad belly fat? And if they're already healthy, should they bother to lose weight?

A 2008 study published in the journal Diabetologica suggested the answer to that second question is "no." In that study, 20 metabolically healthy obese women and 24 metabolically at-risk women went on a six-month diet to lose weight. Results showed the women who were metabolically healthy actually experienced a 13 percent decrease in insulin sensitivity after losing about 6 percent of their body weight. Since decreased insulin sensitivity is a risk factor for heart disease and type 2 diabetes, the findings suggested that losing weight made the metabolically healthy obese women less healthy.

fact is that you cannot assume that a fat person is unhealthy. what i am saying is that it is highly individual, and demonising all obese people misses the point

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hyperlexian
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18 Jul 2012, 2:08 pm

Quote:

It's "absolutely" possible for people to be overweight or obese and healthy, said Dr. Pieter Cohen, an assistant professor of medicine at Harvard Medical School and a general internist at Cambridge Health Alliance. However, the new study is just a "small piece in a larger puzzle," to try to determine which individuals will benefit from weight loss, Cohen said.

Even if we identify individuals at high risk for complications from obesity, it's unclear whether losing weight will reduce their risk of dying, Cohen said.

To more clearly answer the question, researchers should randomly assign obese people to either lose weight or maintain their weight and practice a healthy lifestyle, to see which group sees more improvement in health, Cohen said.

The findings do not give obese individuals a "free license" to gain weight, Kuk said. Rather, the study suggests that maintaining weight, eating right and exercising may, in the long run, be better than trying to lose weight, Kuk said.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/44149775/ns ... AcIerSNPkU

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1000Knives
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18 Jul 2012, 3:43 pm

hyperlexian wrote:

Quote:

17/43 is not the odd random individual who manages to be obese and healthy - it is nearly half.

edit, also this:

Quote:

fact is that you cannot assume that a fat person is unhealthy. what i am saying is that it is highly individual, and demonising all obese people misses the point

I believe you're missing the point by basically celebrating and praising fatness.

hyperlexian
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18 Jul 2012, 3:55 pm

oh, i don't put obese people above average-sized people, i just don't put them below either.

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1000Knives
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18 Jul 2012, 4:26 pm

hyperlexian wrote:

oh, i don't put obese people above average-sized people, i just don't put them below either.

This is where "Love the sinner, hate the sin" comes into play. I don't hate alcoholics and drug addicts, but do I think they are profitable things to do? No. Everyone does have their struggles, but again, the point is adapting and overcoming your struggles, whatever they are. For some people obesity is given to them as a struggle, it was for me, but you must adapt over those struggles. It's not that I "hate" obese people, it's just that I believe they're living in an unwise way, and again, credit where it's due if they try to help themselves out of their lifestyle. Many times, again, it's not really their "fault" but they're the one stuck with the problem. Here's a classic example. http://www.marksdailyapple.com/how-i-lo ... ith-bacon/

But I cannot help but view obesity in the same light as drug and alcohol addiction. I've been witness to the negative effects such a lifestyle has, and I want no part in it. It'd be the same as dating a drug user. Do I hate drug users? No, but I don't want any involvement in what they're doing.

hyperlexian
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18 Jul 2012, 4:50 pm

1000Knives wrote:

hyperlexian wrote:

oh, i don't put obese people above average-sized people, i just don't put them below either.

nobody's asking you to date someone you don't want to date. but there is value in suspending judgement of people when a face value assumption is proven to be inaccurate in almost half of all cases.

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Marcia
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18 Jul 2012, 5:28 pm

hyperlexian wrote:

Marcia, if you want to separate "obese people" and decide that they require specialised services, then any other group can be similarly seprated and examined for their financial impact... and they all cost money for services particular to their group. your logic fails.

My logic doesn't fail. You said that obesity alone carries no additional costs. I have been arguing that you are wrong and that there are costs associated with obesity.

The Scottish Ambulance Service spent £185,000 a couple of years ago modifying ambulances specifically for obese patients.

In a conversation about the costs of obesity, that is relevant.

It is also relevant that there are additional staff costs involved in the home care of obese individuals because it takes four people to turn them in bed, rather than the usual two or one.

It is also relevant if a local authority has to modify their housing stock in order that obese tenants can bathe, eg, remove the bath and install a larger and stronger than standard shower cabinet.

It is also relevant that maternity units have had to purchase stronger, wider trolleys to transport obese women, and also carry out expensive and inconvenient structural works to widen doorways to let the wider trolleys through.

The recent sharp increase in obesity in this country has meant additional costs for public and private sector service providers.

I am not talking about other groups. I am addressing comments you made in relation to obesity.

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18 Jul 2012, 9:03 pm

Marcia wrote:

hyperlexian wrote:

do you acknowledge that EVERY group carries additional costs when studied in isolation? if not, then your point is invalid. you could say that obese people cost money, but so do teenagers, young adults, women, men, elderly people, children, extremely tall people, little people, people with cancer, aspies, etc. every single group has special needs that require special services, and that costs money.

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