more debate about women's faces/bodies

Post Reply New Topic

Yes, because we ALL know:

*people are made to feel comfortable and confident by a society which considers certain bodies "unacceptable",
*taking up a certain amount of space is a "healthy standard",
*fat people who exercise regularly and eat healthfully just aren't doing it "correctly".

Did you know up is down and black is white?
Also, the Earth is flat and storks deliver babies.
Truth!

Go preach your new-agey fatphobia somewhere else.
If you think self-loathing is the key to learning and personal growth,
that's your logical misfortune.



Concern trolling fat people because YOU used to be fat, and were miserable,
and so presume because THEY are fat, they're miserable,
demonstrates a lack of cognizance of the variation of human experience.

I lost over a hundred pounds in the last two years.

And guess what?

I'm STILL not okay with presuming to know sh!t about someone just because of their size-
people did that to me when I was fat,
and it was damned irritating.

Sucks for people who are actually fat because they don't do XYZ the "right way",
but at the end of the day,
even they have the right to be free from misinformed pretentious presumptions being made about them by people pretending to be concerned for their health.


If you don't have anything to say that's not bigoted (and/or scientifically ignorant) don't say anything.

Here's a crash course in how to stop saying stupid sh!t:

*thinner people are not "better"
*teaching people self love and health at any size does wonders for confidence
*hysterical, "think of the children" hand-wringing is old
*"fat" is a size and/or body composition- it says nothing inherent about someone's nutrition or health
*being not-fat is no "higher" an expectation objectively than becoming a champion chess player or rapper- it's a personal goal some people have for themselves, and that's it

Your "passion for the topic" is more than evident, and your bigotry really isn't your fault-
it's been indoctrinated into you by a larger, looks-obsessed society and pop-cult media which butchers actual science.

That being said, I really don't think it should be tolerated- WP is for people who are usually alienated enough from society without being told their bodies are "unacceptable".

I will write a response to this later as I have to go to the library, just tell me why you think my logic is flawed.

I do not see how trying to improve upon yourself is self loathing. If anything not trying to improve yourself is, it's discipline, it's like a parent who does not discipline their child. Mind you, yes, you can overdiscipline, but you can overdo anything.

I can see both sides on this debate.

Urgh.

I get the point you are trying to make Wolf - just as much as I get VW's point.

I think this is just as much about the way you guys are advocating as it is the principles involved.

The thing is, there is a right way to do this and a wrong way to do this. One way is sorting out the psychological stuff first, so that *then* you can focus on nutrition - this way is much easier and has much better long terms changes of altering behaviour. The other side is "focus on nutrition and the rest will solve itself along the way".

Unfortunately the latter way doesn't work for the large majority of people (and it seems it is the side you are advocating - it only works for a small percentage of those who try it) - instead they end up worse than where they started with because they don't deal with the psychological side first and they end up with more weight on that previously - and the entire thing becomes a vicious cycle where they diet and then gain more weight than they started - and the cycle just makes them feel worse about themselves.

The individuals in question need to prioritse their psychological and physical health and make their own choice. For some of them one will clearly outweight the other.

There's no "logic" involved at all in you projecting your own subjective priorities, IE, not being fat,
onto other people as objective goals everyone should have. No one is preaching at you to do any number of things you have no interest in. You're concern trolling- pretending to know what other people "should" want, based on what YOU want, for yourself. I won't even touch the obnoxious idea of shaming people's bodies as a supposed motivator for them to change them- maybe you need to take a few psychology courses if that makes sense to you. "Get happy weirdo" didn't exactly work when the mentally-ill were stigmatized, why would "Shape up, fattie" be any different for overweight people?


Being not-fat is not objectively an "improvement", anymore than me reaching the next area I'm stuck on in Tomb Raider is an "achievement" society should laud me for. Cool beans for me, but who else gives a rip? If someone eats healthfully, exercises, and is healthy, but still fat, the whole "health" nonsense falls apart, because the bigotry against that person based on their size continues. Even if a fat person DOESN'T do any of those things, IE, they're fat because they genuinely live off Twinkies and Coke, they aren't dissimilar from many, many thin people doing the same things, and...drumroll....it's no one's damned business, anymore than I should annoy the bajeezus out of you for not playing Tomb Raider if you don't give a rip about it.

There's a nice lady who works the register at my Kroger who has a very hoarse, deep voice,
but I don't start preaching at her stop the smoking habit that I don't know she has-


more importantly,
even if I saw her outside on break puffing away at a Marlboro, I'd think nothing about it because she's not me. It wouldn't even require a suspension of judgement, just the ability to live life recognizing that others are not you and so your values and priorities do not apply. It wouldn't even occur to me to judge her, because I don't have an unconscious view of myself as fiat dictator of what people "should" want.

Is this difficult for either of you?

good point. i think an athlete could be a great role model for a child interested in sports.[/quote]

I feel you kinda minced words there. You're missing the broader point I'm trying to make. What I'm saying is, people should have a modicum level of athleticism, it's in my opinion almost as important as reading and writing. Saying athletes should be role models only for kids interested in sports is like saying great scientists or doctors should only be role models for kids interested in science or medicine. No, they should be role models for all children, because all children should learn basic science and medical stuff, to be wellrounded, smart, functional citizens. It's the same with exercise and sports. Are all kids meant to be pro athletes? No, but that doesn't mean they shouldn't do anything athletic. Athleticism has been apart of the human experience for as long as we have written history, for good reason, as it keeps us healthy physically, and studies have even shown it keeps you mentally sharper.

Yes, we're all born with different strengths and weaknesses, but even if a kid is a "smart kid" or "bookworm" or what have you, they still should have some amount of athletic knowledge and skill. The opposite extreme of this is the "dumb jock" who has decided his natural athletic ability will set him up for life, and decides not to learn any intellectual knowledge, both are foolish.

As far as sports, there's hundreds of sports to do. I'd say it's a reasonable expectation to find one or two you like and can try doing. To say you don't like sports is like saying you don't like reading, it means you're reading the wrong stuff for you. And unfortunately this is mostly cultural of a problem. Western, and specifically American culture places so much emphasis on fast paced team sports, and very little on individual sports. So as a kid anyway, I tried hard and failed at every team sport I tried, whereas now I do quite well at individual sports, as they're self paced and more slowly "tactical" in the way you go about them.

More to come, but these are fun threads...

Regarding self esteem, self love, etc. Here's my take. If you're able to look at the totality of your life, and feel you've accomplished enough, then...fine. But, if you're not, then you have two options. Either make effort to change what you're dissatisfied with, or try to convince yourself you're satisfied with your life, which amounts to lying to yourself, as if you truly believed you were satisfied, you wouldn't need help to do so.

As far as on your route to whatever you wanna achieve, you have to look at things less as perfection, and more just progression. I may never clean and jerk 400lbs, but does that not mean I shouldn't try to beat my 155? This is how achieving anything in life works.
Satisfaction frankly never leads to progress. If inventors were satisfied with, say, candles and oil lamps, we'd not have electric lights. So to insinuate that someone has self image problems for solving something they see as a problem in life is a ridiculous thought process, and if I could psychoanalyze, it's usually done out of jealousy on the accuser's part.

Everyone has, in legal terms, aggrevating and mitigating circumstances in their life as far as achieving their goals. So when you judge yourself, have to keep these circumstances in mind, but at the same time regardless, you still must work toward progression, with those circumstances in mind.

I am a plus sized woman. I am proud of it. I eat healthy, I see a dietician and I exercise every day(well I haven't lately due to the Grand Mal Seizure I had, my Neurologist will give me the OK in 3 weeks). So is what your saying that all because I weigh over 200 pounds I'm uncomfortable, not confident and I am not socially acceptable?

i think people should exercise for good health, definitely. but an athletic role model doesn't really have anything to do with that unless they are aspiring to be.... an athlete. when i took up competitive hip hop dancing, i didn't have to look at pictures of athletic hip hop dancers to get inspired. i saw women in my own demographic and a variety of body types up on the stage getting jiggy with it, and THAT was inspiring.

if i had only seen thin or muscly or top world champion dancers on the stage, i wouldn't have realised that i could do it too. in order for a role model to be effective, a person has to identify with the idol. there was one particular woman who inspired me, so i joined the same class as her and got to be on the stage with her this year when she got special awards at 3 competitions for embodying hip hop dancing and being an inspiration for all ages (at age 50).

she wasn't even the best dancer on the team, but her enthusiasm was so contagious she had the judges getting up and moving. role models are not necessarily the top of any industry, nor should they be, because the observer has to be able to put themselves into the role model's shoes.

while this is true, there is really no reason why people should be expected to try to lose weight. a good diet and exercise are positives for most people, but a certain body type does not need to be the goal.

Anything in excess can be bad including exercise...you really think excessive exercise would be more beneficial than harmful?

losing weight is not necessarily equal to improving yourself. it is a change, but it's not by default a good change. a healthy diet and exercise are generally good, and getting to a higher fitness level can be a good goal for some people. but the assumption that thinness or muscularity should be the shape that a person should aim towards is not necessarily positive.

if a person is healthy and fit, what difference does their body shape make?

I like this post so much.

What Hyperlexian said. The thing about me is, I weighed 210 pounds and felt perfectly fit, happy with how I look and all that. However, ever since the seizure I've put on about 10 pounds that I'm going to lose. Ten pounds isn't a lot to lose though so I'll be fine. As long as your weight doesn't pose a direct threat to your health and you exercise and eat healthy, you're fine

Also, be comfortable and happy with how you look. I used to weigh 235 pounds and I didn't look or feel so wonderful. Now I feel perfectly happy but I still need to lose back to 210(keep in mind I weigh about 220 at the moment)

Last edited by xxZeromancerlovexx on 24 Jul 2012, 2:20 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Bolding added....

We weren't talking of those who want to "solve" things "they see as a problem in life",
but about the notion that being fat IS a problem for EVERYONE. There are 400 pound people who are blissfully, functionally happy, and why shouldn't they be, exactly?

And, frankly, there's jack sh!t in life a person "must work toward" if lacking any interest in doing so. How are you progressing as far as Tomb Raider? Have you done your research on the premise of the franchise and the backstory of the main character? Have you decided which game edition you're interested in?