weight loss and its issues

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hyperlexian
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15 Jul 2012, 1:03 am

Wolfheart wrote:

hyperlexian wrote:

Wolfheart wrote:

hyperlexian wrote:

Wolfheart wrote:

hyperlexian wrote:

^^^very good point, but who are YOU to choose someone's challenges for them? not you specifically, but any person. if someone wants diet advice, they will ask for it (probably in another thread). people didn't ask for opinions about what they think fat people should be doing with their lives.

Because if we aren't challenged, what will challenge us when we are in a negative mindset? It's up to us as people to challenge each other, encourage each other and to grow.

no, it really isn't. we choose our own challenges, and that's the way it should be.

i could decide for you that your challenge should be to learn some compassion by walking in another person's shoes, like.... hmmmmmm you could become morbidly obese over the course of a couple of years then take the weight off in a healthy way (and keep it off, of course). but it would not make sense for me to judge what your areas of need happen to be, and to make decisions as to what you need to work on. if i did that, then i am deciding that i know better than you do about what is best for you. choosing someone else's challenges for them is an arrogant decision.

If you are born into poverty and you want to amass an amount of finacial security for your family, that's a challenge that is born. If you are born being told something is harder for you and that it can't be achieved, it is an even greater challenge. Nature dictates what our challenges our for us, life isn't fair and that's something that we must accept. If people don't naturally develop to the standards of the norm, people are expected to adapt and to grow by society if they want to achieve and overcome those goals in life.

Some battles aren't chosen but forced on to us.

you're still not getting it. you want other people to take on YOUR goals because you think that is best for them. it isn't. those are your goals, not theirs. maybe they are trying to learn to socialise, or ride a bike, or how to budget, or learn refined manners. but you've decided that since they are fat then they should strive to "improve" themselves, when in fact you are actually no better than they are. just different.

I have not stated that treating obesity is waste of money, I put that example stated by the Prime Minister of the United Kingdom to serve as an example that it is something that can be detrimental to the standard of health. If smoking and alcohol is something that is detrimental to health, the government should encourage people to at least do it in moderation or to be responsible and sensible in their pursuit. By responsible, I mean that people shouldn't go out and hit women or drink and drive and alcohol is an even greater problem.

I have absolutely taken into consideration the point you have made and I think it is a very good one. Being kind to yourself rather than having a judgemental and non-empathetic attitude towards challenges does seem to be a good way but how does one maintain discipline? If we become content, how are we striving to be better? For example, If you become content working a minimum wage job, how do you ever have the goal of getting a better paid job? Maybe there is a balance between being content but also having enough discipline to want to change, I suppose different things work for different people.

you had me until you got to the word "better". thin is not necessarily better. it is not improvement unless it your own personal goal to change in that way.

about the minimum wage thing - again, your goals are not my goals. getting a higher paying job is not always improvement if it leads to higher stress, inflexible working hours, long commutes, etc. it is very individual. it is MY goal to be more zen about life in general, so in fact i left a high paying government job and i am now working at minimum wage. it is teaching me some humility. to me, that is an improvement, but to you, it is not.

your goals are not my goals, and that is ok. if people all left the low-paying jobs, who would work at the grocery store to bag your food?

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Last edited by hyperlexian on 15 Jul 2012, 1:09 am, edited 1 time in total.

Zinnel
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15 Jul 2012, 1:06 am

Wolfheart wrote:

Being kind to yourself rather than having a judgemental and non-empathetic attitude towards challenges does seem to be a good way but how does one maintain discipline? If we become content, how are we striving to be better? For example, If you become content working a minimum wage job, how do you ever have the goal of getting a better paid job? Maybe there is a balance between being content but also having enough discipline to want to change, I suppose different things work for different people.

I think that has more to do with what is one content with. I have a friend who is content with his body and being single dad but not with his job and spends every waking moment trying to move up the corporate ladder and raising his daughter.

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ValentineWiggin
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15 Jul 2012, 1:09 am

Wolfheart wrote:

.... I believe everyone has potential...

to not be a fattie. :lol:

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hyperlexian
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15 Jul 2012, 1:14 am

Wolfheart wrote:

hyperlexian wrote:

edgewaters wrote:

hyperlexian wrote:

i think she wasn't implying ill will. "concern trolling" is pretending to genuinely care about a cause or someone's personal well-being, while actually holding contempt for them.

this is a very good blog post about concern trolling:

http://fatheffalump.wordpress.com/2012/ ... -trolling/

I don't think it's that either (and contempt is ill will).

But I think you had it here:

hyperlexian wrote:

if someone wants diet advice, they will ask for it (probably in another thread). people didn't ask for opinions about what they think fat people should be doing with their lives.

The problem is wrong context. And everyone is entitled to make mistakes, particularly when their intent was good but the execution was flawed or too enthusiastic or what have you.

do you think he doesn't have contempt for fat people? maybe you're right.

Wolfheart, do you think fat people are equally as worthy as athletic people?

If you want to see contempt for fat people, go to a thread like this one http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showthrea ... 991&page=1

If anything, those are the types of attitudes that I am against because I believe everyone has potential. In society? Intellect is far more valuable to me, I would have no trouble hiring a fat person over an athletic person if the fat person was more reliable, productive and trustworthy since only aesthetic and extremely demanding manual jobs require a person to have better level of athleticism. Athleticism is a personal goal, at least I think it is a personal goal but it does require a great amount of determination, dedication and willpower.

i understand that your special interest requires those things, but so does winning a video game championship.

the idea of "potential" means that you have an idea that people should be changing themselves in a certain way, to suit what you think their goals should be. but maybe they gain fulfilment and satisfaction from kicking butt at gaming. they may not be interested in your idea of "improvement" because they don't see a problem with themselves in the first place. they aren't children who need to be guided to the proper goals, they are individuals who have their own hopes and dreams that you may not share.

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Wolfheart
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15 Jul 2012, 1:18 am

hyperlexian wrote:

Wolfheart wrote:

hyperlexian wrote:

Wolfheart wrote:

hyperlexian wrote:

Wolfheart wrote:

hyperlexian wrote:

Because if we aren't challenged, what will challenge us when we are in a negative mindset? It's up to us as people to challenge each other, encourage each other and to grow.

Well self checkouts are becoming more effective in the UK and they are easy to use. If we can advance on this technology, there won't be any need for conventional workers in a shop so that shop would make money because it wouldn't have to pay human workers. Of course, this technology would come with an initial price and maintenance but if it worked out cheaper than an annual salary, it would be more effective.

Anyway more to the point at hand, I agree that better doesn't always mean more, it's about what is efficient for that person as an individual and happiness is a personal and subjective thing.

Kjas
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15 Jul 2012, 1:21 am

ValentineWiggin wrote:

Wolfheart wrote:

.... I believe everyone has potential...

to not be a fattie. :lol:

When I read it, I thought the opposite. (to not be a stick) - so I guess nobody wins unless you fit the cultural beauty ideal.

Funny how individual circumstances are projected on things that doesn't even necessarily apply to you.

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Wolfheart
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15 Jul 2012, 1:22 am

edgewaters wrote:

It's been a bit heated, anxious, and argumentative but I think some interesting stuff got said. Problem is, harmony can only tolerate so much of it.

Well I have questioned certain things and I have been met with some good replies that have made me question my replies which is a positive thing. I think overall I will take into consideration many of the perspectives that people have stated.

Although it is an emotionally charged thread and people are going to insinuate and jump to conclusions or exaggerate. I think if we can put that aside, many interesting theories have been stated in this thread.

hyperlexian
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15 Jul 2012, 1:24 am

edgewaters wrote:

hyperlexian wrote:

i think this thread was a whole lotta fail from the get-go, so i have nooooooooo problem with it being locked. or redirected. or whatever.

It's been a bit heated, anxious, and argumentative but I think some interesting stuff got said. Problem is, harmony can only tolerate so much of it.

yeah, i agree. sometimes i think it is healthy to just lay it all out there.

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Wolfheart
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15 Jul 2012, 1:26 am

Kjas wrote:

ValentineWiggin wrote:

Wolfheart wrote:

.... I believe everyone has potential...

to not be a fattie. :lol:

I wasn't implying that in a physical way, I mean people have the potential to contribute, empower and escalate each other whether that's through laughter, love, creativity, intellect, welcomed competition or athleticism.

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15 Jul 2012, 1:30 am

^^^
I know that's that you meant by it - I can summarise as much from your attitude - no worries there.

That is what I would have thought if I didn't know the person who was saying it that well though - if I hadn't known the way you meant it. My first impressions were that, then I edited to allow for your attitude and personality. I just find first impressions enlightening sometimes.

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Wolfheart
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15 Jul 2012, 1:43 am

Kjas wrote:

I know and I appreciate your analysis of the situation, I was directing that towards Valentine in her attempt to insinuate that I meant something shallow.

I believe Hyperlexian has given an honest response and I will take into account what has been said here in regards to empathy and the level of emotion that is involved in a situation or thread, it has made me try to look at it from their shoes and definitely challenged my perspectives.

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15 Jul 2012, 2:57 am

hyperlexian wrote:

edgewaters wrote:

hyperlexian wrote:

i am unsure which part of my post you are disagreeing with. yes, some people are more sedentary, but if they gain weight then they are technically overeating. if they eat too much for their sedentary lifestyle, they will gain weight.

You have to eat a certain amount of calories just to get all your protein and vitamins, don't you? I guess I don't know the science well enough to really say, though.

not too much. you can get away with very little intake. often, bedridden people don't gain weight even though their output is small, and they manage to get their daily requirements met.

This is only true in the short term. People that follow very low calorie diets long term for the life extension benefits often develop malnutrition problems such as osteoporosis and depression. There is no science behind it, but my feeling is there is a link between body building and neurotic behavior, as well. Taking the real long view, lack of nutrients may effect the person's children and their children's children. The info on this site is worth considering, at least: http://www.westonaprice.org/

I feel body weight only really has a bearing on dating if it effects your confidence and/or physical activity. Physical activity and fitness is good for mood, so I prefer to be around people that get some exercise and a level of fitness is good for the actual mechanics of successful naughty fun times, but you can still be "overweight" and accomplish both fine.

I find that people who have to work to be skinny or fit are often annoying (I was a least! :oops:

) and act like the food police which is a major turn off. Not to mention a diet of egg whites, boneless skinless chicken breast, and protein power makes people cranky. I'd rather chill with a happy fatty that takes yoga or dance classes and strolls through nature for exercise than a socially isolated dedicated body builder or a nerd that gets her dopamine levels elevated by video games and the internet rather than food and thus stays skinny. I dunno where I'm going with this. Shutting up now.

PS. my username is a reference to a funny line in a movie, I'm not obsessed with food. :lol:

hyperlexian
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15 Jul 2012, 3:11 am

fair point about malnutrition. i was going out on a limb without researching that first. i stand corrected.

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Shau
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15 Jul 2012, 3:18 am

hyperlexian wrote:

Shau, you didn't wanswer my question. have you ever been fat? if not, and if you have never been addicted to hard drugs, then i suggest you should stop judging fat people. many of them are addicted to FOOD, not just bad food.

Shau wrote:

Now, as for having been fat? Not exactly. I have been average before. Now I'm very slim, because I run and eat right. And I don't weigh myself down with excuses.

Please read my posts more carefully. I clearly and obviously answered your question.

Now, hard drugs? Does tobacco count? It's addictiveness has been compared to that of heroin in physiological studies. What about a psychological addiction to marijuana? I've managed to kick both addictions, as well as an addiction to foods like coke and cake. I used to love stuffing my face with it.

Also, I didn't judge fat people! Everyone's got their problems. Being fat isn't one of mine, but I have other ones.

[edit]Since I answered one of your questions, answer one of mine: Tell me, Ms Hyperlexian, why is it that only Americans and Canadians are so fat? Why does the rest of the world seem to lack this problem that you and apparently the rest of North America has?

Why is Japan full of nothing but slim people?

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Last edited by Shau on 15 Jul 2012, 3:28 am, edited 1 time in total.

hyperlexian
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15 Jul 2012, 3:27 am

Shau wrote:

hyperlexian wrote:

Shau, people who lose weight are not cleverer than others. they are either less physocally addicted to overeating or they can live with painful withdrawal at various degrees. the 5 year success rate is quite low, and the 20 year success rate is vanishingly small. have you ever been fat?

Kjas wrote:

I know once I got used to natural food again, I couldn't stand the taste of the processed stuff.

I'm gonna say this very plainly for you. Once you stop eating all of that garbage, you stop wanting it.

It took me two weeks of eating fruit instead of icecream, toasted muelsi with sultanas instead of Coco Pops, apple juice instead of soda, and I didn't want sugary, fat-loaded, processed foods anymore. Same thing happened with both my mom, my sister, my bro, many many friends, etc. It's the same story every time: "Oh hey! A bit later and I'm quite happy eating this healthy stuff! And I have improved energy levels, and I've lost/maintained weight!"

Now, as for having been fat? Not exactly. I have been average before. Now I'm very slim, because I run and eat right. And I don't weigh myself down with excuses.

[edit] However, my mother has been very fat before, and managed to lose quite a lot of weight. Her story is exactly like mine. To this day, she happily enjoys a banana instead of Tim Tams or icecream, and your brain will reward you all the same for eating it.

ah i see it now. not sure how i missed it, sorry. i even had trouble finding it the second time around.

tobacco doesn't count as a hard drug, no. it is hard to quit, definitely. for my part i found it easier to kick than fattening foods. i quit a 2 pack a day habit (Camel Filter) cold turkey in a period of high stress in my life. more of a comparable situation would be if i had to try to quit an addiction while still smoking a few cigarettes a day - and never increasing the quantity.

no, my brain doesn't reward me the same for a banana vs a cookie. not even slightly, even after several years of massive dietary changes.i feel better that i lost weight as it positively impacted my health, but that doesn't make healthy foods yummy to me.

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Shau
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15 Jul 2012, 3:29 am

Have you ever, once, managed to COMPLETELY cut out all of the fatty foods, for a period of time of at least 1 month? Not reduce, not cut down, ALL OF IT?

I'm just utterly flabbergasted that America seems to be stuffed to the brim with people who have these strange and mysterious genetics problems that are apparently absent from the rest of the world.

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