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bizboy1
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15 Oct 2012, 12:32 am

Does lithium carbonate affect memory and cognition? If so why? I also heard it can cause neurogenesis in certain regions of the brain.


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Sarah81
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15 Oct 2012, 3:24 am

Not sure how lithium affects cognition and memory. I'm fairly sure that having bipolar disorder affects cognition and memory, even between episodes.

As for neurogenesis, I'm not sure about that either, but my doc did say something about Lithium allowing the brain to heal. Lithium is meant to have a protective effect against further episodes.

Either way I've been stable on it for two years now. Yay!



OddDuckNash99
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15 Oct 2012, 12:02 pm

Yes, lithium may affect memory and cognition. And yes, it has the ability to induce neurogenesis in certain brain regions, mainly by increasing the amount of BDNF. It is currently thought that the neurogenesis effects may be why lithium works so well in preventing bipolar suicide. Lithium's neurotrophic effects are also being looked at as treatments for certain neurodegenerative disorders, such as Alzheimer's.

As for its effects on memory and cognition, some people find that their mind feels "slow" on lithium, but this is a small proportion of those who take it for bipolar disorder. Several studies have looked at whether or not lithium significantly affects memory/cognition, and most findings show that bipolar patients usually feel just as mentally sharp, creative, and productive (if not more so) on lithium as they do without medication. For those who do feel sluggish and "slow" on lithium, other treatments are available, of course. But just because this is a possible side effect of lithium does not mean that it occurs nearly as frequently as it often is made out to be. Besides, looking at medicated bipolar patients' memory scores have the confound that bipolar disorder and other neuropsych disorders tend to decrease performance on working memory/executive function tests to begin with. So, it's often hard to pinpoint if this is a result of the medication or a result of the natural course of the disorder.

Why does lithium sometimes affect cognition and memory? Well, that isn't very well studied or known at this point. In some people who feel "slow" on lithium, it may simply be because of the fact that they are used to racing thoughts during hypomania/mania, which lithium would put a halt on. If you're interested in how lithium is hypothesized to work as an anti-manic agent in general, there have been lots of recent findings. Lithium seems to do a lot of things in the brain, including decreasing mitochondrial excitotoxicity, decreasing levels of glucocorticoids, increasing levels of BDNF and neurogenesis (as stated above), and slowing second messenger/G protein signaling pathways. An NMR study from this year showed how lithium's main anti-manic action appears to be the inhibition of the enzyme IPPase in the phosphatidylinositol pathway.

If you're really, really interested in the specific biochemistry, go on PubMed and look up journal articles by Manji. Feel free to ask me more questions, too. This is my area of specialty.


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Sarah81
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15 Oct 2012, 8:30 pm

OddDuckNash99 wrote:
Yes, lithium may affect memory and cognition. And yes, it has the ability to induce neurogenesis in certain brain regions, mainly by increasing the amount of BDNF. It is currently thought that the neurogenesis effects may be why lithium works so well in preventing bipolar suicide. Lithium's neurotrophic effects are also being looked at as treatments for certain neurodegenerative disorders, such as Alzheimer's.

As for its effects on memory and cognition, some people find that their mind feels "slow" on lithium, but this is a small proportion of those who take it for bipolar disorder. Several studies have looked at whether or not lithium significantly affects memory/cognition, and most findings show that bipolar patients usually feel just as mentally sharp, creative, and productive (if not more so) on lithium as they do without medication. For those who do feel sluggish and "slow" on lithium, other treatments are available, of course. But just because this is a possible side effect of lithium does not mean that it occurs nearly as frequently as it often is made out to be. Besides, looking at medicated bipolar patients' memory scores have the confound that bipolar disorder and other neuropsych disorders tend to decrease performance on working memory/executive function tests to begin with. So, it's often hard to pinpoint if this is a result of the medication or a result of the natural course of the disorder.

Why does lithium sometimes affect cognition and memory? Well, that isn't very well studied or known at this point. In some people who feel "slow" on lithium, it may simply be because of the fact that they are used to racing thoughts during hypomania/mania, which lithium would put a halt on. If you're interested in how lithium is hypothesized to work as an anti-manic agent in general, there have been lots of recent findings. Lithium seems to do a lot of things in the brain, including decreasing mitochondrial excitotoxicity, decreasing levels of glucocorticoids, increasing levels of BDNF and neurogenesis (as stated above), and slowing second messenger/G protein signaling pathways. An NMR study from this year showed how lithium's main anti-manic action appears to be the inhibition of the enzyme IPPase in the phosphatidylinositol pathway.

If you're really, really interested in the specific biochemistry, go on PubMed and look up journal articles by Manji. Feel free to ask me more questions, too. This is my area of specialty.


Thanks OddDuckNash99, that was informative. I have always wondered what the actual neurological problems in bipolar disorder are. Sometime ago I studied college-level intro to neuroanatomy. Right now I imagine that somehow the limbic system is lacking a regulating mechanism, that it just keeps firing willy-nilly all the time. But I see it is much more complicated than that. The doc also explained to me that lithium pushes out sodium, so perhaps it prevents over-excitation that way. I will have to get my college notes out and try to get my head around my head again. What is BDNF? A chemical causing neurogenesis? There is so much to know and to understand.



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16 Oct 2012, 8:24 am

Sarah81 wrote:
Right now I imagine that somehow the limbic system is lacking a regulating mechanism, that it just keeps firing willy-nilly all the time. But I see it is much more complicated than that. The doc also explained to me that lithium pushes out sodium. What is BDNF? A chemical causing neurogenesis?

BDNF is the acronym for Brain-Derived Neurotrophic Factor. The BDNF gene (what lithium upregulates), when turned on, allows for more BDNF to be made. Yes, BDNF is one main reason neurogenesis occurs. In one book, I saw BDNF depicted by a watering can, because it's like water and soil to a plant. :lol:

The limbic system firing senselessly definitely is involved in mania's neurochemistry. One hypothesis with a good bit of evidence is that voltage-gated sodium channels and glutamate overfire during mania. This hypothesis is supported by the fact that this random brain activity is what happens during a seizure, and this may be why so many anti-convulsant medications (e.g., Depakote and Tegretol) are effective anti-manic agents.

I've never really heard about lithium competing for sodium as being a reason for less overexcitation. Rather, it's thought that the whole reason lithium may work in the brain is that it is a +1 cation, just like sodium and potassium.


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Sarah81
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17 Oct 2012, 1:01 am

OddDuckNash99 wrote:
Sarah81 wrote:
Right now I imagine that somehow the limbic system is lacking a regulating mechanism, that it just keeps firing willy-nilly all the time. But I see it is much more complicated than that. The doc also explained to me that lithium pushes out sodium. What is BDNF? A chemical causing neurogenesis?

BDNF is the acronym for Brain-Derived Neurotrophic Factor. The BDNF gene (what lithium upregulates), when turned on, allows for more BDNF to be made. Yes, BDNF is one main reason neurogenesis occurs. In one book, I saw BDNF depicted by a watering can, because it's like water and soil to a plant. :lol:

The limbic system firing senselessly definitely is involved in mania's neurochemistry. One hypothesis with a good bit of evidence is that voltage-gated sodium channels and glutamate overfire during mania. This hypothesis is supported by the fact that this random brain activity is what happens during a seizure, and this may be why so many anti-convulsant medications (e.g., Depakote and Tegretol) are effective anti-manic agents.

I've never really heard about lithium competing for sodium as being a reason for less overexcitation. Rather, it's thought that the whole reason lithium may work in the brain is that it is a +1 cation, just like sodium and potassium.


That was good to know. I like this gardening metaphor - if I think that Lithium is 'growing' my brain and perhaps 'keeping the weeds down' (stopping overfiring) then I will be very motivated to take my medication!



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18 Oct 2012, 11:38 pm

I am also grateful for this explanation. I'm not sure I'm bipolar actually, but maybe I get a little bit bipolar 2ish when I'm under a lot of stress. It does run in the family, too. I have been under a lot of stress lately and I couldn't foresee that getting better anytime very soon so I mentioned to my psychiatrist that I would be interested in trying a low dose of it and he said that might be a good idea and it was neuroprotective or something too. I didn't realize it could help the brain so much and that was exactly what I needed!

It doesn't seem to slow my thinking down (I'm on a pretty low dose because I tend to overreact to meds in general) but it does seem to make me get tired a little more easily. That's not a bad thing because I have major insomnia problems. Mostly it seems to work like anti-anxiety medication for me, which is cool because real anti-anxiety meds never have worked for me. So I am under a ton of stress right now, but getting sleep and not anxious thanks to the lithium, and I don't think I've had a single headache since I've been on it. I still get upset...but I have real life reasons to be upset, and at least I know it doesn't have anything to do with a mood disorder being untreated because we've got that base covered. It's also not a time in my life I could afford to wonder if purchases or decisions were hypomanic or not. Really, the addition of the lithium was a perfect decision for this time in my life. I don't have to second guess myself all the time, and that's really kind of priceless for a medication that is just a salt and could easily be considered a mineral supplement (and is, in many places). And if it's healing my brain too? That's wonderful news!



Sarah81
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19 Oct 2012, 2:27 am

Buttercup wrote:
I am also grateful for this explanation. I'm not sure I'm bipolar actually, but maybe I get a little bit bipolar 2ish when I'm under a lot of stress. It does run in the family, too. I have been under a lot of stress lately and I couldn't foresee that getting better anytime very soon so I mentioned to my psychiatrist that I would be interested in trying a low dose of it and he said that might be a good idea and it was neuroprotective or something too. I didn't realize it could help the brain so much and that was exactly what I needed!

It doesn't seem to slow my thinking down (I'm on a pretty low dose because I tend to overreact to meds in general) but it does seem to make me get tired a little more easily. That's not a bad thing because I have major insomnia problems. Mostly it seems to work like anti-anxiety medication for me, which is cool because real anti-anxiety meds never have worked for me. So I am under a ton of stress right now, but getting sleep and not anxious thanks to the lithium, and I don't think I've had a single headache since I've been on it. I still get upset...but I have real life reasons to be upset, and at least I know it doesn't have anything to do with a mood disorder being untreated because we've got that base covered. It's also not a time in my life I could afford to wonder if purchases or decisions were hypomanic or not. Really, the addition of the lithium was a perfect decision for this time in my life. I don't have to second guess myself all the time, and that's really kind of priceless for a medication that is just a salt and could easily be considered a mineral supplement (and is, in many places). And if it's healing my brain too? That's wonderful news!


Make sure you get regular blood tests to make sure that your blood levels are below toxic level. Glad you have been helped by Lithium, it's helped me a lot too.



OddDuckNash99
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19 Oct 2012, 6:39 am

Sarah81 wrote:
Make sure you get regular blood tests to make sure that your blood levels are below toxic level. Glad you have been helped by Lithium, it's helped me a lot too.

While the primary reason you need regular blood tests for lithium is to prevent lithium toxicity, it's also important for maintaining proper maintenance levels. Some studies have shown that higher doses may work better against mania and lower doses may work better against depression, so your psychiatrist may use the blood levels to help stabilize both your levels and your moods. Most people need a blood level of 0.6-1.0 mEq for proper maintenance treatment.


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19 Oct 2012, 1:00 pm

OddDuckNash99 wrote:
This is my area of specialty.


Maybe you could help me out then. Do you know if the mechanism of action for lithium is known or if those studies are still theories? The last time I tried to figure out the mechanism it was a bit tricky. The voltage-gated sodium channel mechanism is most likely not important, I would agree with that. But lithium seems to have a complex mechanism as you already stated in your post. Do you believe that the IPPase inhibition is the main function of lithium? I guess you are refering to this study:

PubMed (NMR)

But I've also seen this study with Synapsin II:

Pubmed (Synapsin II)

And there is the theory that shows how lithium may prevent Bipolar Disorder by modifying the gene expression:

PubMed (Gene expression)

And I guess there are several additional mechanisms besides these. What is your conclusion on this topic?
Do you think lithium is effective on short-term, long-term or both? And is the mechanism completely different for all these actions?



OddDuckNash99
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19 Oct 2012, 3:16 pm

Bio_Info_Seeker wrote:
Do you know if the mechanism of action for lithium is known or if those studies are still theories?

No, nothing in neuropsychiatry is unquivocally "known" at this point. It's all hypothesis or theory based on strong evidence. The true mechanism of lithium isn't 100% known yet, no, but the evidence for its role in dampening second messenger signals, primarily via the phosphatidylinositol pathway, is the strongest evidence to date. I can reply more in detail soon. No time right now. But just consider this- Cade discovered lithium's anti-manic effects in 1949, and we STILL don't know its full biochemistry. That says something about the complexity!


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