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Eyeselation
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04 Mar 2024, 12:06 pm

This is the “reverse discrimination” thread for NPD. To say others can’t understand, or didn’t read that initial article is insulting and demeaning. That others don’t have the intellectual capacity to grasp concepts which they can, and do espouse. Elitist at best. Deceptive at worst.
No they just don’t agree with you. Get over it.



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04 Mar 2024, 12:20 pm

Since some people haven’t really done much more than address the title and posts they disagreed with rather than points in the article itself, I figured that they didn’t read it. People often do that, especially when an article is long and they don’t have the time, energy, or focus that day. Many of us, including myself, have ADHD, so it’s understandable.

I didn’t say anything about “intellectual capacity.”

I don’t think that every autistic person has narcissism although some do, but the disorders do co-occur in families and there does appear to be some overlapping traits.

From the OP:

Quote:
”One of the key traits in people with autism is that they lack what is known in psychology as a ‘theory of mind’, which is also known as ‘mindblindness.' Theory of mind (T.O.M) means the ability to understand that other people have a mind and thoughts that differ from our own. This means that people with autism will often only be able to see things from their own point of view, they cannot imagine how something may affect someone else; which may be why you see them as self-centered."

Sounds a lot like narcissism!

Also, narcissism can be thought of as existing on a spectrum:

https://www.webmd.com/mental-health/nar ... toms-signs


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Last edited by TwilightPrincess on 04 Mar 2024, 1:05 pm, edited 2 times in total.

Summer_Twilight
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04 Mar 2024, 12:39 pm

First of all, NPD and ASD are two different disorders, but that does not mean that a person on the spectrum can't have NPD.



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04 Mar 2024, 12:44 pm

This is a qoute from the OP :"If they're correct, that would seem to put people prone to NPD adjacent to ASD or would even make a certain level of predisposition to NPD inherently part of the autistic spectrum."

This is an opinion formed based on the article quoted. But the article in and of itself , is an opinion aswell .
And although symptomology may cross over , " but so do peoples birthdays ,( people born on the same day).
Am thinking this group of symptoms , needs more introspection. Especially adding in the actual physical differences on a biological basis , ( ie. analyses of Spec scans and FMRI tests) to get a better grip on whats what in these " so called"
disorders . In combination with the symptomolgy . To get a better Picture . And better treatment for all.
but this is not to say certain developed personality traits should not be addressed, for safety of everybody concerned.
And possibly be very wary ( aware of these traits in individuals ) :idea:


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Eyeselation
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04 Mar 2024, 1:23 pm

Do you question those who agree with you if they read the entire article? Do you say they must not have read it all the way through? Or they’re incapable of understanding?
Nobody does. But not everybody stoops to saying others aren’t intellectually equipped to read an article in its entirety.



Last edited by Eyeselation on 04 Mar 2024, 1:39 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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04 Mar 2024, 1:26 pm

 ! Cornflake wrote:
That's enough, Eyeselation - your goading and unpleasant commentary is unnecessary and getting tedious.


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TwilightPrincess
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04 Mar 2024, 1:35 pm

The word “narcissism” has such a negative connotation and is frequently used to demonize people we don’t like that I think many would be upset by the idea of associating autism with it. I’ll admit that it would’ve bothered me not too long ago. However, I think there’s some nuance here and in the article itself. It’s a worthy topic to discuss.

The problem with demonizing narcissism is that it leads to stigma and could prevent people from getting diagnosed or seeking help/support through counseling, etc. Once again, that in no way means that we should tolerate abusive behavior or ignore red flags, not that a person has to have NPD to be an abuser.


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Eyeselation
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04 Mar 2024, 1:53 pm

[quote="Cornflake"]
Sorry if I offend with my truth. But is it possible this isn’t directed at anyone in particular and doesn’t break any rules. Thought we were free to express opinions that are not violent or demeaning in nature. Like saying people are too dumb to read an entire article.
Are you in charge here? An administrator?



Eyeselation
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04 Mar 2024, 1:56 pm

[quote="Cornflake"
What is permissible to talk about? If I’m not addressing and quoting someone directly? But texting my innermost thoughts.
Is there a limit to how many times you can text on a subject? Honestly want to know.



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04 Mar 2024, 1:58 pm

NO ONE said that anyone was too dumb to read an article. If they did, you should report them.


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Cornflake
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04 Mar 2024, 1:59 pm

Eyeselation wrote:
Sorry if I offend with my truth. But is it possible this isn’t directed at anyone in particular and doesn’t break any rules. Thought we were free to express opinions that are not violent or demeaning in nature. Like saying people are too dumb to read an entire article.
Opinions, true or false, can be freely expressed without the added baggage of snark and goading.
For example, no-one other than you has said "people are too dumb to read an entire article".


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04 Mar 2024, 2:01 pm

Eyeselation wrote:
What is permissible to talk about? If I’m not addressing and quoting someone directly? But texting my innermost thoughts.
Is there a limit to how many times you can text on a subject? Honestly want to know.
The basic site rules should provide an adequate answer - viewtopic.php?t=263570


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04 Mar 2024, 2:36 pm

 ! Cornflake wrote:
Some off-topic argumentative posts have been removed.

Additionally, Eyeselation has been granted a one week holiday from WP to reconsider how she interacts with members.


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04 Mar 2024, 4:03 pm

Summer_Twilight wrote:
First of all, NPD and ASD are two different disorders, but that does not mean that a person on the spectrum can't have NPD.


I don't think it's ever been suggested that they're not different disorders with different diagnostic criteria.

It's just that there is an overlap between a few features, like the article mentions.

Quote:
Self-centeredness; inappropriate to developmental level and cultural expectations
Poor self-awareness, poor ability to develop remorse or learn from mistakes
Poor empathy or appreciation of others feelings
Poor ability to reciprocate emotions.
Hostile dependency on safe relations.
Failure to develop emotional relationships appropriate to developmental level and social norms
Treating people as objects or preferring objects over them


Where people with NPD without comorbid autism diverge is that they're:

Quote:
able to interact with high levels of social skills in situations where impressing someone they look up to is important to them... narcissists appear sociable and socially even highly capable when they are interacting with someone whom they regard as having potential to fulfill their desire for admiration, power and other “narcissistic supplies.”


So far I've really tried to avoid the tangents about what any of this means in regards to how to deal with people with NPD, that's an entirely different discussion. I'd like to not get lost in those weeds and just focus on what makes people display narcissistic traits, and that largely seems to be shared between children, people with ASD and people with NPD.

With NT children, there's an expectation that they'll continue to develop. With everyone who's development in that regard is delayed, recognizing it as a delay doesn't mean it has to just be tolerated. People are always entitled to take measures to not be subjected to other people's toxic behaviours.

Given that crybullying isn't an unheard of phenomenon on this site (even in this very thread), and how this pattern of behaviour is often motivated by what we lump together as narcissism, it's worth understanding what drives it, even if only to better learn to recognize it.

A lot of hostilities on here boil down to you're so mean, you're not letting me win this interaction or you're so mean, you called me out for antagonistic behaviour, so recognizing those patterns can help with disengaging when someone is taking a disagreement more personally than it deserves to be taken.


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05 Mar 2024, 3:17 pm

In theory, philosophically, people with dark traits like narcissism and psychopathy can't help it. They haven't made a choice to have these traits. But for all practical purposes they should be held responsible for their actions. As I see it, autism and narcissism can look a lot alike at the surface, but are totally different conditions. When dealing with narcissists your priority should be to protect yourself. Get away from them, don't get involved. If they need help leave that to professionals to deal with.


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funeralxempire
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05 Mar 2024, 3:47 pm

BillyTree wrote:
As I see it, autism and narcissism can look a lot alike at the surface, but are totally different conditions.


You're right that they're different conditions, but it's worth considering how to better navigate the narcissistic tendencies we encounter from other autistic people, as well as our own tendencies of that sort.

Quote:
Self-centeredness; inappropriate to developmental level and cultural expectations
Poor self-awareness, poor ability to develop remorse or learn from mistakes
Poor empathy or appreciation of others feelings
Poor ability to reciprocate emotions.
Hostile dependency on safe relations.
Failure to develop emotional relationships appropriate to developmental level and social norms
Treating people as objects or preferring objects over them


Those traits are typical of ASD, meaning participating in an autistic community means interacting with people who possess those traits as well as almost certainly possessing them yourself.

It doesn't matter that someone can claim the less stigmatized label of autism vs. the more stigmatized label of NPD if and when they're demonstrating a tendency towards self-centeredness or an inability or low drive to appreciate others feelings (or whatever common feature might be relevant at the moment).

Being aware that one is more prone to certain patterns of behaviour and understanding can help with managing those tendencies, so long as one is willing to take the hit to their ego and acknowledge where their own shortcomings contribute to some of the outcomes they've experienced.

Recognizing these traits doesn't even mean one needs to change (as is their prerogative), but maybe it can help provide a more specific explanation than blaming ableism or normies just hate people with autism or whatever.

Just like we're not wrong to avoid people who we feel show red flags for narcissism, other people aren't wrong when they see our red flags, even if we'd really like them to tolerate those red flags because we have a doctor's note with a different excuse written on it.


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