J.K. Rowling is a disgusting TERF

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magz
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22 Dec 2019, 1:15 pm

The_Walrus wrote:

At the moment, nobody checks your birth certificate when you go to the toilet. Trans people, like everyone else, can use the toilet they choose. Same with changing rooms. So bringing up “perverts pretending to be trans to get access to little girls in toilets” is frankly bigotry, even if the person has good intentions.

I have actually encountered one.
Precisely, a pervert trying to get access to the private part of bra fitting forum, claiming to be a transwoman "with every right". He was really yuck, and at every denial he yelled it's transphobia.
Of course we got rid of him. If someone behaved like that IRL, the police would get involved.

The_Walrus wrote:

The only thing that self-ID changes is how easy it is for trans people to get ID with their real gender on it. It has zero impact on cis people.

Unless they are bio female sports competitors.

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22 Dec 2019, 1:32 pm

The_Walrus wrote:

VegetableMan wrote:

Twilightprincess wrote:

VegetableMan wrote:

Twilightprincess wrote:

VegetableMan wrote:

"Dog whistle" is just another term being utilized to shut down discussion and demonize anyone who dares question trans ideology, which is operating under the flag of progressivism and tolerance. It seems rather authoritarian to me, and is anything BUT progressive and tolerant. This is not we create a more inclusive society.

Perhaps if more people on the left would condemn calls for violence against alleged TERFs with as much vigour as they condemn tweets like Rowling's, we'd be in a much better place.

What about the “ideology” of gay rights? Should we support and respect views that want to abolish gay marriage?

Or what about the “ideology” behind women’s rights and civil rights?

The word “ideology” is thrown around incorrectly a lot lately whenever someone doesn’t like something.

If a trans female says she is a woman, who am I to question it? I’m not in her mind so how would I be capable of judging her experience?

It seems like it would be really difficult to deal with the sorts of issues they face for it to merely be an empty ideology with no solid basis.

I’d be more than happy and willing to accept a trans female into whatever girlish hijinks we want to get involved in that day - talks about art and fashion, romantic movies, or perfecting our superhero powers with martial arts skills. The usual stuff.

As far as I know, the gay rights movement has never sought to erode the rights of others. The same can be said for the women's rights movement. I'm not saying that trans ideology is "baseless." But there is no getting around simple biological facts. The sex you were born will always be your biological sex until the day you die. How you wish to express yourself is another matter altogether. I'm fully supportive of breaking down gender stereotypes and allowing people identify in any way they see fit. What I'm against is this coercive social engineering and demoning anyone who doesn't fall in line with the trans movement.

I fail to see how trans people are infringing on my rights. I’ve not been inhibited in any way.

I really don’t even think about it all that much unless I meet a trans person or talk to individuals on here. To go to the effort of speaking out against the trans community or supporting individuals who do suggests that prejudice is at work here. It’s not cool.

I also wouldn’t be cool with other forms of prejudice - those which are no longer viewed as acceptable by mainstream society.

You may feel that your rights are not being infringed upon, but other women feel differently. Are their concerns invalid? Should they just accept biological males in their locker rooms, prisons, and sports because if they don't, there being discriminatory? Shall we just tag them with a derogatory label and toss them aside without any further discussion?

I know a couple of women who are on the same page as Rowling and Forstater. Neither of them have a prejudiced bone in their bodies.

Lots of religious people say they don’t hate gays, they just don’t want them to change the definition of marriage, or say they’re interfering with their right to choose who can get married. Similarly the pro-slavery movement talked of their right to keep slaves being infringed upon.

At the moment, nobody checks your birth certificate when you go to the toilet. Trans people, like everyone else, can use the toilet they choose. Same with changing rooms. So bringing up “perverts pretending to be trans to get access to little girls in toilets” is frankly bigotry, even if the person has good intentions.

The only thing that self-ID changes is how easy it is for trans people to get ID with their real gender on it. It has zero impact on cis people.

Oh, boy! Now you're comparing opposition to gay marriage, and those who opposed the abolition of slavery, to woman who simply wish to preserve their safe spaces? Yikes!

The sexual predator aspect of allowing biological males into women's locker rooms aside, it's has more to do with personal comfort than anything. What if I was uncomfortable with sharing a locker room a trans male? Would you simply tell me to get over it and get with the program? I am very sympathetic to the personal comfort of the trans community, but you can't ignore the rights of one group by taking away the rights of others.

The problem here is you faul to grasp the central issue, here. Let me reiterate: Biological females like Rowling have a valid right to voice their concerns without fear of reprisal, demonization, or even physical assault.

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TwilightPrincess
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22 Dec 2019, 1:54 pm

I’m not comfortable with changing clothes in front of anyone, so I use a changing room or a restroom if there isn’t anything else available. I haven’t changed in front of anyone else but close friends since puberty.

As far as restrooms go, there’s lot of privacy in them anyway because there are separate stalls.

As we discussed in a thread awhile ago, how can we determine who is biologically female and, thus, “allowed“ to use a restroom? Unless we have someone stationed at the door invasively checking everyone’s plumbing (which would cause a whole host of problems), there’s no way to tell for sure.

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The_Walrus
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22 Dec 2019, 2:22 pm

magz wrote:

The_Walrus wrote:

(...) specific ideology which denies the biological reality of gender.

What is "biological reality of gender"? I'm from a different culture and I see this term for the first time in my life.

So according to libfem theory, which I subscribe to, there are many aspects to gender.

Sex: do you produce sperm or eggs (or would/did you at childbearing age)?
Gender identity: do you feel like a man, a woman, or somewhere in between? Do you have a fixed gender identity or any at all?
Gender roles: the idea that men or women should behave in a certain way or do certain gendered things (like men being aggressive breadwinners or women being docile housewives). This is almost entirely socially constructed.

A trans person has a gender identity that doesn’t match their sex.

The radical feminist view is that there is no such thing as gender identity. Trans women are just feminine men in dresses. Trans men are masculine women in denial.

The radical says that trans people are upholding gender stereotypes. The liberal says that they are breaking free of them and living according to their true identity.

magz
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22 Dec 2019, 2:24 pm

Twilightprincess wrote:

And I changed openly in one room with my whole choir, not gender-separated.

Twilightprincess wrote:

As far as restrooms go, there’s lot of privacy in them anyway because there are separate stalls.

As we discussed in a thread awhile ago, how can we determine who is biologically female and, thus, “allowed“ to use a restroom? Unless we have someone stationed at the door invasively checking everyone’s plumbing (which would cause a whole host of problems), there’s no way to tell for sure.

So, partially from two opposite sides, we're both questioning the purpose of women-only spaces.
Yet I see women-only gyms and I read about women-only train cars. As I'm not a user of either, I don't really have defined feelings about transwomen using them.

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The_Walrus
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22 Dec 2019, 2:29 pm

VegetableMan wrote:

The_Walrus wrote:

VegetableMan wrote:

Twilightprincess wrote:

VegetableMan wrote:

Twilightprincess wrote:

VegetableMan wrote:

I completely grasp the “central issue”. I am very familiar with transphobic arguments. I have many trans friends and acquaintances, and my views on this matter have publicly evolved on WrongPlanet as I have learned more about this.

The central issue is that it is bigoted to present trans women as inherently predatory or dangerous. There are not “biological spaces”, there are spaces for men and spaces for women.

Rowling is specifically getting backlash because she defended someone who deliberately and repeatedly misgendered one of their colleagues. She defended bigotry. She doesn’t deserve violence of course, but she also doesn’t deserve sympathy. She’s f****d up and criticism is warranted.

magz
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22 Dec 2019, 2:34 pm

The_Walrus wrote:

A trans person has a gender identity that doesn’t match their sex.

The radical feminist view is that there is no such thing as gender identity. Trans women are just feminine men in dresses. Trans men are masculine women in denial.

The radical says that trans people are upholding gender stereotypes. The liberal says that they are breaking free of them and living according to their true identity.

Do liberal feminists believe one can be a feminine man or masculine woman without being trans?

Honestly, I don't know any real life trans people and the closest to it I know are a couple of my close friends who self-identify as more or less gender neutral but for the purpose of grammar and bureaucracy use their biological sexes.
And a lot of people (myself included) who claim they are persons first, sex and gender being some part of it but not the most important.

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TwilightPrincess
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22 Dec 2019, 2:50 pm

magz wrote:

Twilightprincess wrote:

And I changed openly in one room with my whole choir, not gender-separated.

Twilightprincess wrote:

I would consider a trans woman a woman just like me (although there are biological differences which aren’t important).

On a different note, I probably wouldn’t mind using restrooms that were open to either gender as long as the urinals weren’t out in the open. I probably wouldn’t be comfortable with that.

It would be nice to have individual restrooms as well for people who have some sort of trauma history or who just want extra privacy.

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TwilightPrincess
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22 Dec 2019, 2:55 pm

magz wrote:

The_Walrus wrote:

There’s no hard and fast rule as to what specific feminists believe.

I identify as a moderate to liberal feminist, and I think of gender and sexuality as being on a spectrum, so to me, there can certainly be feminine men, masculine women, and androgynous people who are not trans.

I’m more interested in how people self-identify than anything else. I care about using appropriate and respectful pronouns and things like that. I like understanding and learning about people as unique individuals.

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magz
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22 Dec 2019, 3:33 pm

Twilightprincess wrote:

I don't identify as a feminist (we talked about it before), if I really need some "-ist", then, lets say, individualist would probably fit best.
I think sex is defined by reproductive potential of an individual while gender and sexuality form multi-dimensional continuum, with complex, hard to refine relationships between individuals and their cultures.

Twilightprincess wrote:

I’m more interested in how people self-identify than anything else. I care about using appropriate and respectful pronouns and things like that. I like understanding and learning about people as unique individuals.

I'm most interested in civil behavior

Then, I try to do my best to be nice - which can be tricky due to my AS but various oddballs are more likely to openly state their expectations about being nice than the "normals"

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VegetableMan
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22 Dec 2019, 4:05 pm

The_Walrus wrote:

VegetableMan wrote:

The_Walrus wrote:

VegetableMan wrote:

Twilightprincess wrote:

VegetableMan wrote:

Twilightprincess wrote:

VegetableMan wrote:

I completely grasp the “central issue”

Nah, you don't. It's become a circular discussion that will get us nowhere.

Personally, I am amazed that OP was not reprimanded for making extremely misogynistic comments. That would certainly not fly if a man made such inflammatory statements about a feminist. But the trans community gets a pass, I suppose. Just like the media renains pretty much silent about threats against women from the trans community. Seems a bit hypocritical to me.

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22 Dec 2019, 5:32 pm

I think the flaw in that is that you're thinking of it as one or the other, whereas I'm thinking "OK, let's grab 3 who are great and 3 or 4 who are OK".

VegetableMan wrote:

Nah, you don't. It's become a circular discussion that will get us nowhere.

All due respect, you're not the first conservative I've spoken to, not by a long shot. I understand the point you're trying to make, it's just wrong.

Quote:

0Personally, I am amazed that OP was not reprimanded for making extremely misogynistic comments. That would certainly not fly if a man made such inflammatory statements about a feminist. But the trans community gets a pass, I suppose. Just like the media renains pretty much silent about threats against women from the trans community. Seems a bit hypocritical to me.

As some of the articles linked in this thread explain, the British media at the moment is relentlessly transphobic everywhere outside of LGBT-specific publications. They're much quicker to raise and indeed fabricate negative stories, and push the viewpoints of TERFs, than they are to push trans-positive content. The balance doesn't need to be tipped even further against trans people. In the US you seem to have a pretty good balance in the press, although your politicians are more transphobic.

The only thing in the OP that could be argued to be misogynistic is calling JK Rowling a cow. While that term has a gendered element to it, it's a pretty tame insult which Rowling uses in her children's books. Given this, as the facts that it is in reaction to bigoted comments by a much-beloved celebrity, that Rowling is not a poster on this forum, and that the OP is a woman herself, I don't think the OP was being misogynistic or that mod actions would be remotely appropriate.

I would politely suggest that someone who has made multiple transphobic remarks throughout this thread, and who has previously been warned not to bully other users, should not really be attempting to police the behaviour of others.

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22 Dec 2019, 5:44 pm

The_Walrus wrote:

I would politely suggest that someone who has made multiple transphobic remarks throughout this thread, and who has previously been warned not to bully other users, should not really be attempting to police the behaviour of others.

The links don't explain anything except peoples' opinions, not evidence, and I certainly haven't seen any transphobic remarks in this thread. Where are they?

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22 Dec 2019, 6:05 pm

I have made no transphobic remarks in this thread. Once again, The Walrus demonstrates why he is not qualified to be a mod on this site.

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22 Dec 2019, 6:10 pm

By the way, when have I ever bullied anyone on this site? Please provide evidence of that.

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22 Dec 2019, 6:13 pm

VegetableMan wrote:

Twilightprincess wrote:

VegetableMan wrote:

Referring to it as an “ideology” and saying that that’s “how you wish to express yourself” could seem offensive to trans individuals who have struggled with gender identity and whose transgendered experience is very different than just a “wish.”

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