Adding a third gender option

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Orwell
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27 Mar 2010, 10:10 pm

Eggman wrote:

the mothers environment can affect it as well,

The mother's environment can affect what? Hormone levels? Sure, but never anywhere near the level that would be needed to switch the gender of the child. The mother has no impact on determining gender.

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TallyMan
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28 Mar 2010, 4:43 am

Orwell wrote:

Eggman wrote:

the mothers environment can affect it as well,

I'm sure I read a scientific article several years ago saying that the mothers hormone levels could substantially affect the gender of the child's brain at some point during foetal development - particularly when those hormone levels were excessive due to some sort of auto-immune response against the baby?

I think the article also posited this as one of the possible causes of homosexuality with the gender of the brain becoming out of step with the chromosomal gender. Our own brain gender determines which (if any) gender turns us on sexually and the smell of which gender's pheromones attracts us etc; as well as various aspects of personality, general behaviour and self perception of gender.

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sinsboldly
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28 Mar 2010, 6:05 pm

Orwell wrote:

Eggman wrote:

the mothers environment can affect it as well,

my mind reels from the woman that were blamed for this throughout the ages. Anne Boleyn comes to mind immediately. . . exhausted from labor and delivery, knowing that she sealed her fate by bearing a girl child, even though that child grew up to be Elizabeth I.

just taking a moment to consider so many women being held responsible for the sex of their child.

Merle

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Mysty
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28 Mar 2010, 6:29 pm

Orwell wrote:

Look, it's not even possible to argue this on the biology. You are simply wrong on those issues. Tallyman and Mysty are making much better points by referring to the societal/cultural aspects that go along with gender.

To respond to their points: I understand that a lot of people do not fit into "traditional" gender roles, and I'm not proposing trying to force people into them. I just disagree with your claim that fitting into a particular set of societal expectations is what defines your gender. You can still be a woman and like football. You can still be a man and like to cook. Defying traditional gender roles does not change the fact that one is either male or female. It is not necessary to let your biological gender define your identity. But that does not change the objective fact that you are either male or female.

You claim to be responding to my points, but you've ignored my point that gender is about more than being male or female.

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Orwell
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28 Mar 2010, 7:07 pm

Mysty wrote:

You claim to be responding to my points, but you've ignored my point that gender is about more than being male or female.

Actually, I've just explicitly rejected that claim. To me, gender is just a genetically determined physiological characteristic. It has traditionally held implications for a person's role in society, I'll grant that, but I don't see those aspects as being integral to what gender someone is.

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Mysty
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28 Mar 2010, 11:12 pm

Orwell wrote:

Mysty wrote:

You claim to be responding to my points, but you've ignored my point that gender is about more than being male or female.

No one put you in charge of the English language.

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sinsboldly
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28 Mar 2010, 11:15 pm

Mysty wrote:

Orwell wrote:

Mysty wrote:

You claim to be responding to my points, but you've ignored my point that gender is about more than being male or female.

No one put you in charge of the English language.

HA!

good one, Mysty!

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Orwell
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28 Mar 2010, 11:21 pm

Mysty wrote:

Orwell wrote:

Mysty wrote:

You claim to be responding to my points, but you've ignored my point that gender is about more than being male or female.

No one put you in charge of the English language.

No one put you in charge either.

In general, people working in the natural sciences conform to the definition I've used for gender (male or female) and people in the social sciences tend to use the definition you do. I tend to be biased towards the natural sciences and hold the social sciences in low regard.

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makuranososhi
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29 Mar 2010, 12:56 am

The suggestion has been made; if you need to discuss the matter of what constitutes gender any further, I would ask that you move that conversation elsewhere.

M.

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Mysty
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29 Mar 2010, 10:48 am

Orwell wrote:

Mysty wrote:

Orwell wrote:

Mysty wrote:

You claim to be responding to my points, but you've ignored my point that gender is about more than being male or female.

No one put you in charge of the English language.

You're retort at the beginning seems pointless, since you admit that I'm accurately reporting how the word "gender" is used and that the meaning you previously insisted on is only on way it's used, not the only way. (Replying not to further discuss the word, but simply because I found the response odd.)

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perigon
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03 Feb 2011, 7:09 am

I don't know why we're forced to pick a gender when we sign up. But if you must know, at least provide an "other" option so we don't have to lie.

Asp-Z
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03 Feb 2011, 7:38 am

Forget three genders, lets have five!

Male
Female
Alien
Ladybird
Robot

TallyMan
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03 Feb 2011, 9:43 am

Asp-Z wrote:

Forget three genders, lets have five!

Male
Female
Alien
Ladybird
Robot

That is blatant discrimination because you forgot to include root-vegetables!

Joking aside I see no reason why there can't simply be an 'undeclared' option, as in "none of anyone's business".

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soulecho
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03 Feb 2011, 11:31 am

Orwell wrote:

In general, people working in the natural sciences conform to the definition I've used for gender (male or female) and people in the social sciences tend to use the definition you do..

I find your assertion amusing, because us biologists refer to biological sex as "sex", not "gender"-- and this is a fact. You may be entitled to your own opinion, but you are not entitled to your own facts.

Gender is a social construct , and is not the same thing as sex. Even sex isn't binary, and gender is far less so, whether you like it or not.

Asp-Z
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03 Feb 2011, 12:44 pm

TallyMan wrote:

Asp-Z wrote:

Forget three genders, lets have five!