Voynich DO you like Unsolved Mystery?

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Hello! You have certainly been busy, and learning a lot in a very short time. The many possibilities are literally endless of course

The thing it is on is a mystery. No one really has come up with anything concrete... I've heard jellyfish... not that it is a jellyfish, just that it looked like one to a couple of people. As for "post-New World" exposure... it is interesting that several researchers, who strongly believe in pre-Columbian dating for the VMs, have expressed that they "feel" it is much newer. I call it the "nagging sense of newness". And by much newer, I mean, early 17th century.... which is what I have suspected for some time.

But the armadillo and sunflower not only point to a possible dating, but to an influence... both a source influence, and a group receptive to that influence. The armadillo and the sunflower were iconic representations of the New World to late 16th and early 17th century Europeans. Their inclusion.. if that is what they were intended to be... would then imply the author meant to include a New World influence in the Voynich... which does fit my theory. The residents of the fictional Bensalem were descendants of Native Americans... and so it would be proper to illustrate a faux book from their society and culture with Native American icons.


Yes... the trouble is, once again, there is little consensus on what art history is being represented. The comparisons are made to existing art forms, over almost the entire history of art!


I think he did pay something like this for other works... and I do not know the cost of a bible in his time. It may have been explored or even answered, but off the top of my head, I do not know...


Well you make good points, and this has been done... and is still being done, in every form an fashion. Much work is repeated, in my opinion, in this area. I personally think it is something else, and have my own ideas of the type of cipher/code this represents... and yes, they would have to explain the repetitions. But there are many possible reasons... such as use of nulls, either in a transposition cipher, or with a grille, or other. Some characters and/or words may just be filler... and an intended reader would just ignore them. But of course we do not know...


This has been suggested to me frequently. But in fact, in perusing many older micrscope texts from the the 18th through 19th century... and even, Robert Hooke's 1660 work... the images of microscopes and what they revealed are scattered throughout the pages and text. Another suggestion to me was that such a book would show the insides and technical details of microscopes... and I ask, "why?". Because there are many illustrations of microscopes in many technical manuals... and some show the insides, and some do not. But again, even though this is the case, I have distanced myself somewhat from this being a factual, actual notebook, as I have said. I feel it is a fantasy text, and it's nature therefore would be harder to predict, or compare to predictable, known examples... because there are none.

And besides... and this is an important point, I think... while there can be critical dissection of points from mine, or anyone's, theories... it has to be remembered that right next to the purported deviation from the expected, there are the most wildly fantastical illustrations... such as nude woman frolicking in and around tubes spouting colored liquids... so how can one expect an orderly conformation to anything else? And I mean this for any such observation... such, for example, the common question, "Why would an herbalist encipher their knowledge?". Well first of all, I would ask, why would an herbalist draw this or that bizarre images? These are over riding questions, IMO, which obviate the importance of other, finer, distinctions.



I do not know if any of the cylinders, if optical as I suspect, are meant to represent telescopes. As for the Spiral Nebula... this was Newbold's dissertation, believing that Roger Bacon may have had a good enough telescope to see it. I do not agree... and most do not agree... that there is any evidence that such powerful optics existed in R. Bacon's time. And I do not believe they did in "my" time of 1610 to 1620, either.


I'm sure such a concept did exist, going back to the beginning of literature, and before that, art. Many of the individual elements of my New Atlantis theory do exist in other cultures, sciences, fiction, and so on... I contend, however, that so many do not exist in one place, and that the comparisons are too numerous to ignore. For me to ignore, at least.

Later, Proto57

Hi, wow I thought you forgot about me, I have been reading Nick Pelling's CipherMysteries.com to get my Voynich fix. Currently he's linking to other researchers (not his own) who claims some similarities between Da Vinci's handwriting and VN. He is influencing my thinking to the extent that I think it is Europeon, Medieval, Italian humanist, and it is encrypted, not some kind of transcription of a natural language.

I don't know how Native Americans were depicted in Renaissance Italy (i.e feathers and bonet on horses) but the women in question look European, not NA (unless that was the convention at the time)

How does the 7-pointed stars bullet points (as opposed to 5, 6,) fit in?

Oh no, not at all. It is just that as you quickly get a grip on what is known in the world of Voynichology, and start coming up with your own conclusions, there is less which I can impart to you that you have not already come across or thought of. But again this has been a really valuable discussion to me, because it is interesting to hear feedback to "the scene" from someone who does not know Nick Pelling, or I, or anyone else in this world. It helps me to know how to explain myself better, and also, how others who are more politically saavy than I, to capture the imagination of those interested in the Voynich. This is a multi-faceted puzzle: There is:

1) What it really is.
2) What people think it is.
3) What people want it to be.
4) What people have said/say it is.
5) What people think they know it is.
6) What people do not want others to think it is.
7) What people do not want it to be.
8.) What people think they can make it be, or not be.

But what most people do not realize is, number 1) is the only one which matters. It might sound implausible, but most people, even well meaning ones, have some combinations of all the rest on that list, and are working very, very hard at them... but again, they do not matter... it is only number 1) which matters.



Yes, I think Edith Sherwood is the name... I think you linked her site here on this thread. I feel it very well could be Da Vinci, but I am not of course convinced of this, or anything, even my theory. I think Pelling wrote way back when that Sherwood was wrong, that Da Vinci was left handed, and that he felt the VMs was written right handed. It may have been someone else who wrote that... but the point is, I'm not sure how one would know that, but maybe they could, and maybe they know... and guess what? Could be. Either.



In my opinion, the depiction of the woman in the VMs (as I've said) fit very well with the Dutch Mannerist style. And also the faces and expressions. But as for matching any actual Renaissance depiction of Native Americans, there are some similarities to some depictions, and differences to others. Usually we find these images on 16th and 17th century maps. But again, there is a point to keep in mind, which may seem subtle, but is both profoundly important, and yet often misunderstood and mis-stated, as relates to my theory. It is this, as simply as I can put it: The New Atlantis was a work of science fiction fantasy. So while there will be influences of the time, European, New World, and other, they will be influences only, and the artist of the Voynich would have, if a representation of a Book of Bensalem, used these as a starting point, and purposely made the influences as subtle as possible, and altered them into something bizarre, alien and unique. So we would not, in that case, find, nor should we expect to find, a close representation of any known object or discipline. It would, we should expect, look very enigmatic, while reflecting somewhat both the known, while inadvertently giving away the secret.

What I mean by the latter is that the artist, while going through great pains to reflect the fictional culture of Bensalem, may have unavoidibley included his/her own influences, such as a Dutch Mannerist body type, or the traditional covering of a contemporary optical device. Think of the 1960's Star Trek, the original series. We see it now, and the hair styles, boots, pants, mini-skirts, make up... all reveal the time frame the series was actually designed. This was inadvertant on the part of the creators of the series... they were attempting to depict a 23rd century style (I think it was 23rd... I'm no Trekkie). But they put bell-bottom pants on the crew, just as a Renaissance artist may have drawn a Rubenesque woman with a contemporary braided hairstyle. Even when a style is borrowed, in the VMs, from an earlier medival herbal, it looks more like a later Renaissance work...

It is very hard to stick to a fiction, and completely avoid the pitfalls of including one's own contemporary predjudices, when reflecting an unknown future, and a distant past. This is what I think happened here, and what is then the root of all the difficulty in pinning down the VMs to any known culture or time.


I don't know...

Later, proto57

Hi I'm back.

Well I can see how VM could be influenced by NA -- I guess one way to evaluate this is to look at other books of this era that are fantasy-future like NA.

Re: 7 point stars, etc., It seems to me that if there exist a certain way of doing things, such as a 5 or 6 pointed star or identifiable plants, the author prefers to go another path. So for example, if there is one shorter more well known way to take a trip, the VM author would prefer some other route.

re: Sherwood, yes that is right. I do wonder though whether the art can match up with Da Vinci's known exemplars. I do think that the sheer odds of correctly identifying the correct author out of all possible authors seem pretty remote. Pelling's account of the pages being out of order and his proposal for putting them in order makes sense.

Re: your points, esp 1 I am reconciled to giving up "romantic" ideas that VM represents some kind of lost language, culture, ancient wisdom for a more mundane cipher written in Italy. It does look like Renaissance type work, at least from the examples I've seen posted comparing VM to Renaissance type writing. I think one possible way to arrive at 1 is to ask about the psychology and profile of the author --- what kind of person would even attempt something like this -- what do the pictures say about the author's psychology, thoughts, emotions, and knowledge?

re: women being dutch mannerist, I'm wondering if the faces drawn of the moon/sun and some roots of plants also is dutch mannerist. If so this is 2 separate lines of evidence that converge. For that matter, what about other drawings (i.e animals, plants, stars etc)

Hi:

I am looking for a copy of Somnium, by Kepler. From the Wikipedia article:

"Around 1611, Kepler circulated a manuscript of what would eventually be published (posthumously) as Somnium (The Dream). Part of the purpose of Somnium was to describe what practicing astronomy would be like from the perspective of another planet, to show the feasibility of a non-geocentric system. The manuscript, which disappeared after changing hands several times, described a fantastic trip to the moon; it was part allegory, part autobiography, and part treatise on interplanetary travel (and is sometimes described as the first work of science fiction)."

Here we have a science fiction/fantasy, conceived in the time frame of the New Atlantis. Other examples of fantasy of this time are the books of the Rosicrucians. Most important to my theory is The Chymical Wedding. Core the the RC movement are lost books of forgotten knowledge, written in ancient ciphers (sound familar). The Chymical Wedding, although really written about 1614-16, was presented as a story from the mid 15th century... just as I propose the Voynich was: That is, created between 1610 to 1620, but made to look as though it was much older. Here is a sample of the code from the Chymical Wedding:

My point is that while there is no comparative art or text in the fantasy genre which compares exactly to anything in the style or art of the Voynich, the idea of creating a fantasy was not unknown in this time frame.

As far as "future" though, I don't think so. While Bacon was thinking of the future implications and applications of his concepts, he did not include predictions of the future in his works. Nor did the Rosicrucians, or Kepler, and so on.

But back to the lore of the Rosicrucians: The idea of a mystical, ancient tome, containing all the knowledge of the world, forgotten and unknown to Europeans in general, and written in an unknown language and script, is an important one. And this concept (the Book M) relates to the Book of Solomon of Bacon's New Atlantis, which was also an ancient tome, with all the knowledge of the world, all the plants of the world, many unknown to Europe, and written in an unknown, ancient script and language. And then, one could describe the Voynich as seemingly containing diverse and unknown knowledge, looking ancient, and written in an a unique script, and possibly, language.

So although there are no direct examples, matching exactly the Voynich, in fantasy/science fiction, one must remember there is nothing matching the Voynich in any way, anywhere, exactly, and yet, the concepts I believe are reflected in the Voynich are part an parcel to the place and people I suspect it sprang from. These people and this time, even if it turns out they did not create the Voynich, should not at all surprise anyone if they created something just like it.

I know what you are saying, and such an answer could have a value. However, not so much for my concepts. Because I suspect it reflecting work of fiction, then it would not so much reflect the psychology of the author. Maybe, it would reflect the psychology of Francis Bacon, as revealed in the New Atlantis... but the author/artist of the Voynich would be trying to recreate the aura of the land and lore of the fictional Bensalem, and so, I feel, it would be too removed from the thoughts and desires of that artist, and so not necessarily reflect them very much. In style, yes; in though, no. Just my opinion, I'm not meaning to be argumentative, or dissuade you, because I could see your idea being valuable to another investigation.

There is no doubt that the styles of the VMs converge from many sources. I don't know what all those would be. I do sense, as many experts also have, for what it is worth, that many of these styles are copied from many sources. This is a big bugaboo of the VMs... the diversity of style and content. It works well for my theory, because created as I imagine, the author/artist would draw from many sources, add fantasy, and then, also, inadvertently color much with their own style. But not all, no. proto57

ensabah6: I appreciate the opportunity you've given me to discuss this in a public forum. It's was part of the inspiration to finally start a blog, and "go public" with some of my ideas. If you are interested:

Voynich/New Atlantis Blog

Take care, proto57

Wonderful to see so much analysis of Voynich ! !

One odd aspect is that the writing does not match up to any known languages. This has probably been noted here already. (Sorry, but I don't have all day to read the posts ! !)

What about a theory that it came from a parallel dimension??

The Voynich Manuscript explained!! !

There has been a break in this cold case ! !!
The manuscript has been carbon dated to between 1404 and 1438.
This makes it far older than previously thought.
It also knocks out every suspected forger and author.
But wait ! ! There's more ! !!
There is an illustration of a castle in the manuscript, with odd design.
That design was only used in Northern Italy that far back....

So now we have a place and time to research and sift through.
(As for carbon dating, in the immortal words of Charles Fort, I believe-disbelieve in it.)