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beakybird
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11 Feb 2016, 6:36 pm

LexingtonDeville wrote:
zeertheseer wrote:
Ok, I realize I am probably going to get a lot of hate for this, but I want to get it out of the way. I wish to make this clear, I HATE metal and Screamo. Despise it, I don't like rap, opera gives me a headache, but metal is in my opinion the worst music to exist. Now allow me to explain. people say all the time that people hate metal because its all screamo and that they don't even listen to the lyrics. that's not why I hate metal. in fact, lyrics are pointless in a lot of songs to me, I love beat. my problem is with what the lyrics say, its true I have been forced to listen to a couple, and they have very deep lyrics. here is my problem, YOUR SCREAMING THEM AT ME. and a lot of lyrics I do hear are usually (not all the time but a lot) about being trapped somewhere, or feeling left out, or feeling sad, or just negative feelings in general. there are VERY few happy songs, and you being screamed at to either be happy or be told to be happy, hell if I told a happy story with no beat just screaming the entire time would you not get a headache? I would, of course they have beat, which annoys me even more. I like beats, beats are what I listen to, I love country beats, J-pop, Alternative. but I can't take the beats of metal its sadistic. now I am not saying metal is satans music, But I am saying that I Hate all screamo and metal.

Long story short?

The lyrics are deep but negative and make you feel sad making most people feel they can "relate"
the lyrics are almost all more or less SCREAMED, and those that aren't just sound either psychotic or sad
most of the music videos have these horrible things happening in them that are not at first apparant, things like singer waking up then realizing their in there own grave and try to scream to get out? I MEAN COME ON


So you base metal as the worse music genre because you believe it's negative? Clearly you haven't listened to the power metal sub-genre, which is mostly uplifting and not even the slightest bit negative. And don't try to compare it to screamo, that's just stupid generalisation. They're two completely different musical sub-genres, regardless of what the idiots in the media say.


Yes. Screamo is a relatively small sub-genre at that, and one trend that's mostly come and gone.

Bottom line is, you can't make ANY sweeping generalizations about metal because it can be so different from style to style. Anyone who does so simply doesn't know what they are talking about.



TheExodus
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11 Feb 2016, 8:08 pm

zeertheseer wrote:
do you know any metal that doesn't say sad things? literally every single Metal song I have heard has deep lyrics its true, but there huge debby downers.


These two spring to mind;





The second isn't technically metal, but it is in a sense. Oh, and looking back you did say "sad things", for some reason I read as "negative things". Still, these are relatively positive songs.


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12 Feb 2016, 8:16 pm

@beakybird:

"Thing is, you are likely in a small minority with the things you prioritize in the music you like. I'm not sure many people value the quality of the recording/production over the actual music itself. I believe the only people giving much thought are probably musicians themselves."

Bingo. And, for me it's 50/50. I still do enjoy the actual music/art itself, but I know what you mean. Most people who listen to pop music usually pay little attention to the background music but only the lyrics, and pay very little attention to the sound quality.

"I do see what you mean about metal bands having some advantages. In that style of music its fairly easy to get limited underground exposure, especially if the area you live in supports a music scene. Problem is, success for these bands is a fairly low ceiling. Especially as we've seen here, if they do not employ primarily clean vocals, which is extremely limiting for the style."

Well, that low ceiling to some is the best independent musicians of other genres can do, and would actually be content with achieving. If you're more likely to be able to get on a small, independent, unknown label because you make indie rock or another type of rock, you've already 'won' in my eyes as an electronic musician. I do believe music doesn't get you very far for the vast majority of musicians, but it's not about getting far, it's about sharing the music with people and making a reasonable amount of cash to supplement your income, but not rely on it.

A guy at my school who makes Pop Rock is semi-famous in this town, gets gigs all the time, plays for tips in the streets, he was privileged enough to be talented in the one genre here that will get anyone anywhere here.

"I mean we all like what we like, and if for you engineering perfection is your thing, then that's your thing.

But I still contend that's simply not possible/advisable for all styles of music." - possible, yes, advisable, maybe not. I just don't see what the issue with is if a metal band, not black metal but of any sub-genre, made 95% of their music raw and natural, and, not to appeal to the mainstream but if they actually WANTED to, choose to make 5% of their music sound engineered well. It could be just one song, an EP, whatever.

Tbh I find the metal culture, the whole concept of 'selling out' and its strict adherence to sound raw and natural a little silly.

If the artists/band themselves do NOT want to make ANY music that sounds like that, fair enough. But if there are some that DO, they just might be unable to because they know making just one song with a polished sound to it will make them lose their original fans, 'SELLOUTS!', 'THEY'VE GONE POP!', etc. Talk about loyalty[/i]...

This HAS happened to Pop Rock and Indie Rock bands, who are criticized when their sounds went mainstream. That was of their own choice, they wanted to make their music sound like that, and whether they were appealing to the mainstream or not, they have every right to make that type of sound. The fans that wanted their rawness, can just go back to their older music, put it on cassette tape, play it on an old '90s stereo. There's your rawness...

Sweetleaf: "But metal isn't about being clear sounding or easy on the ears to bring in more and more people, I mean there's a whole subculture with it."

I'm questioning why some can't be. Just like some rap doesn't care about having an amateur sound quality to it but generally sounds clean and polished, just like electronic, which prefers to sound clean and polished, may also have a raw, natural sound to it, especially in the ‘90s when they used Vinyl and Analog synths still and multitracking recording methods. (‘raw’ and ‘natural’ for electronic anyway. link: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3Rn-HznkIIM and https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-Ic3LjosM9M)

For as long as metal has been around, with all its sub-genres, it’s a little odd there’s a clear lack of diversity and variation regarding sound engineering.

I don’t care if it’s ‘not a part of the sub-culture’. That’s an excuse. For all its claims of being ‘free’ from the rules of music production, it’s a little ironic one would ostracize bands who choose to have good music production.

Freedom to not follow the rules should also allow freedom [i]to
follow the rules.

Otherwise, it’s not a very liberal genre if someone who does like music production is a ‘sellout’.

In this very section in the ‘Wrongplanet Musicians showcase’ I did find one user who posted their soundcloud and they actually had a metal band with a clear, crisp sound to it. It sounded amazing to my ears. They have just as much right to be part of ‘the culture’ than bands who make raw, natural sound. If not...you’re not a very welcoming culture than, like metalheads claim.

If the sound is not to your preference, than you don’t have to listen to it. But if you were to outright ostracize and outcast the bands and artists that do have clear sound production, then I see a problem.



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12 Feb 2016, 8:41 pm

I never said a band shouldn't be able to make clean music. I was pointing out that band doesn't have to make clean music. It seemed you wanted bands to make clean music. Bands don't have to make clean music. They should make the kind of music they want whether it be clean or raw. The mainstream shouldn't have any say over what music a band should or shouldn't make.


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12 Feb 2016, 9:16 pm

Outrider wrote:


But I still contend that's simply not possible/advisable for all styles of music." - possible, yes, advisable, maybe not. I just don't see what the issue with is if a metal band, not black metal but of any sub-genre, made 95% of their music raw and natural, and, not to appeal to the mainstream but if they actually WANTED to, choose to make 5% of their music sound engineered well. It could be just one song, an EP, whatever.

Tbh I find the metal culture, the whole concept of 'selling out' and its strict adherence to sound raw and natural a little silly.

If the artists/band themselves do NOT want to make ANY music that sounds like that, fair enough. But if there are some that DO, they just might be unable to because they know making just one song with a polished sound to it will make them lose their original fans, 'SELLOUTS!', 'THEY'VE GONE POP!', etc. Talk about loyalty[/i]...c


Problem with that is you'd get this one song that'd stick out as an obvious attempt to pander to the masses. Metal people of ANY sub-genre preference despise this typically. There are many reasons to this. I think metal fans tend to take their music far more personally than fans of most other types of music (Punk excluded, I don't like it but those people are PASSIONATE about their music). The lyrical content tends toward personal issues/beliefs and in general the music appeals to people who have been socially marginalized. I mean, for me, the music I like is almost like a family member or close friend. I desire their company and will defend it to strangers. I believe many a fist fight (and much worse) has started from someone's really favorite music being insulted. While I've never fought over it myself, I've been close a few times when I was younger. If you don't like it, fine, I get that. Don't talk s**t though or you may get hit.

You obviously don't get it. I suspect, also, you're idea of "metal" is likely VERY limited to your more classic metal sound of your Metallicas and Megadeths of the world. I would be fairly certain if I, or someone like Sweetleaf were to list their top 20 favorite bands, you may have heard of a handful (I do like a few more mainstream acts like Deftones). Maybe. For myself, I sincerely doubt you've heard much mathcore, deathcore or djent. Which is fine, that's not your taste, or maybe you've never been exposed. You'd likely hate it if you were to be.

If bands try to intentionally change their sound to gain more approval, it must mean that they've departed from something. Fans often feel betrayed by this because they helped make the band what they were only to see them become another mainstream douche bag. Staying true to the underground and your long time fans is important, I don't see it as the slightest bit silly. Wise metal fans know the difference between a "sellout" (i.e. crafting music they think more people will like) and creative maturation (the artists generally change their output based on personal growth). If I think a band has sold out I lose all respect. If i feel it's just a personal change I don't care for, then good luck to you guys, I'll enjoy your old material. This happened to my all-time favorite band some years ago but I still respected them because it was a change in artistic direction, not a blatant attempt to appeal to the sheeple.

And you are qualifying YOUR standard of engineering quality across the board here. As though YOUR tastes in production are the absolute. There are different production styles just as much as there are different singing styles. Your preferred style would not mesh with most types of music I like, any more than my preferred style of vocals would mesh with yours. (though electronics and death growls can play surprisingly nice together).

Outrider wrote:
This HAS happened to Pop Rock and Indie Rock bands, who are criticized when their sounds went mainstream. That was of their own choice, they wanted to make their music sound like that, and whether they were appealing to the mainstream or not, they have every right to make that type of sound. The fans that wanted their rawness, can just go back to their older music, put it on cassette tape, play it on an old '90s stereo. There's your rawness...


Actually cassettes are making a comeback. And some people still LOVE vinyl and insist it's the best way to hear music. Many current albums I like are also released in limited edition vinyl. I don’t prefer this as I do tend towards the more clean production as I previously mentioned. Of course this is relative as metal is the only style of music I ever listen or have listened to.

Outrider wrote:
Sweetleaf: "But metal isn't about being clear sounding or easy on the ears to bring in more and more people, I mean there's a whole subculture with it."

I'm questioning why some can't be. Just like some rap doesn't care about having an amateur sound quality to it but generally sounds clean and polished, just like electronic, which prefers to sound clean and polished, may also have a raw, natural sound to it, especially in the ‘90s when they used Vinyl and Analog synths still and multitracking recording methods. (‘raw’ and ‘natural’ for electronic anyway. link: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3Rn-HznkIIM and https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-Ic3LjosM9M)


I’m sure some can be. There alomost certainly are some. I’d guess a lot of Prog Metal is probably pretty polished. I don’t know because I don’t really like it much. Tool’s Lateralus comes to mind. While Tool isn’t really metal, that was quite a clear album production-wise.

The issue is, the majority of fans into that style listen to the music they do because it IS raw, it IS imperfect. Take that away and you remove part of the appeal of the music.

Outrider wrote:
For as long as metal has been around, with all its sub-genres, it’s a little odd there’s a clear lack of diversity and variation regarding sound engineering.

I don’t care if it’s ‘not a part of the sub-culture’. That’s an excuse. For all its claims of being ‘free’ from the rules of music production, it’s a little ironic one would ostracize bands who choose to have good music production.

Freedom to not follow the rules should also allow freedom [i]to
follow the rules.


Firstly, you and I both know you aren’t qualified to make any sweeping generalizations about metal because you don’t know much about it. You’re basing your opinions on whatever small percentage of metal you’ve actually been exposed to. Which is limited to anyone who doesn’t actively seek it out. You’re not going to hear a fair representation anywhere “metal” is played, because even metal has it’s mainstream.

Also as I said above, you’re making up rules based on your preferences and applying them across the board. There are no “rules” to music. Writing, playing, recording, whatever.



Outrider wrote:
Otherwise, it’s not a very liberal genre if someone who does like music production is a ‘sellout’.

In this very section in the ‘Wrongplanet Musicians showcase’ I did find one user who posted their soundcloud and they actually had a metal band with a clear, crisp sound to it. It sounded amazing to my ears. They have just as much right to be part of ‘the culture’ than bands who make raw, natural sound. If not...you’re not a very welcoming culture than, like metalheads claim.

If the sound is not to your preference, than you don’t have to listen to it. But if you were to outright ostracize and outcast the bands and artists that do have clear sound production, then I see a problem.


Your limited perspective on the music in question is clouding your opinion. “sellout” has nothing to do with polish. It has everything to do with intentional efforts to change to gain new fans. It’s generally a fairly drastic change in the music itself. Most people aren’t paying much mind to the recording quality either way.
Bands don’t get ostracized from a scene because they record music a certain way, it’s generally because they suck. Part of that may being too clean, but there would be other metal people who may be into that.

Some try to claim metal as some welcoming culture. It is not. At all. It’s actually the opposite. Many bands I like fight against this. The “old school” metalheads generally hate any bastard genres mixed with their metal. I happen to love this. The artists I like are often not “metal” enough for many metal people. There are ever-present arguments about what “real” metal is or isn’t. Slayer=real metal. Candiria= not real metal. Nonsense.
Think of metal fans more like little individual tribes in one geographic location. They war for territory among each other, but if a total alien tribe came in they’d likely fight it off together, then go back to fighting each other.



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12 Feb 2016, 10:33 pm

"Problem with that is you'd get this one song that'd stick out as an obvious attempt to pander to the masses. Metal people of ANY sub-genre preference despise this typically. There are many reasons to this. I think metal fans tend to take their music far more personally than fans of most other types of music (Punk excluded, I don't like it but those people are PASSIONATE about their music). The lyrical content tends toward personal issues/beliefs and in general the music appeals to people who have been socially marginalized. I mean, for me, the music I like is almost like a family member or close friend. I desire their company and will defend it to strangers. I believe many a fist fight (and much worse) has started from someone's really favorite music being insulted. While I've never fought over it myself, I've been close a few times when I was younger. If you don't like it, fine, I get that. Don't talk s**t though or you may get hit."

- I can see the appeal in the music, I can see the appeal in the raw sound. And I'm not insulting it directly, I'm saying I prefer a polished sound.

"You obviously don't get it. I suspect, also, you're idea of "metal" is likely VERY limited to your more classic metal sound of your Metallicas and Megadeths of the world. I would be fairly certain if I, or someone like Sweetleaf were to list their top 20 favorite bands, you may have heard of a handful (I do like a few more mainstream acts like Deftones). Maybe. For myself, I sincerely doubt you've heard much mathcore, deathcore or djent. Which is fine, that's not your taste, or maybe you've never been exposed. You'd likely hate it if you were to be."

I'll admit, I haven't listened to too much metal. But that I do listen to is your 'classic' metal sound. I've heard of drone metal, grindcore, goregrind, black metal, death metal, 'viking' metal, etc. but I simply don't listen to it, as yes it's not to my taste.

"If bands try to intentionally change their sound to gain more approval, it must mean that they've departed from something. Fans often feel betrayed by this because they helped make the band what they were only to see them become another mainstream douche bag. Staying true to the underground and your long time fans is important, I don't see it as the slightest bit silly. Wise metal fans know the difference between a "sellout" (i.e. crafting music they think more people will like) and creative maturation (the artists generally change their output based on personal growth). If I think a band has sold out I lose all respect. If i feel it's just a personal change I don't care for, then good luck to you guys, I'll enjoy your old material. This happened to my all-time favorite band some years ago but I still respected them because it was a change in artistic direction, not a blatant attempt to appeal to the sheeple."

Indeed, and I applaud all who can see the difference.

"And you are qualifying YOUR standard of engineering quality across the board here. As though YOUR tastes in production are the absolute. There are different production styles just as much as there are different singing styles. Your preferred style would not mesh with most types of music I like, any more than my preferred style of vocals would mesh with yours. (though electronics and death growls can play surprisingly nice together)."

I feel it's the other way around. I'm questioning why, seemingly, by what every metal fan has said in this forum, that 'raw' and 'natural' and unpolished metal must be absolute. Why a metal band cannot make polished, clean music. That's all I am trying to say: "Why is it so hard to find?" I guess the answer is simply 'only the minority of artists and bands want to make that type of metal music'. If that's the case, than so be it. Though I don't see a problem with the minority that want to do this, I just wish more existed. It's merely a desire, not an order.

"Actually cassettes are making a comeback. And some people still LOVE vinyl and insist it's the best way to hear music. Many current albums I like are also released in limited edition vinyl. I don’t prefer this as I do tend towards the more clean production as I previously mentioned. Of course this is relative as metal is the only style of music I ever listen or have listened to."

Yeah, vinyl is good.

Outrider wrote:
Sweetleaf: "But metal isn't about being clear sounding or easy on the ears to bring in more and more people, I mean there's a whole subculture with it."

I'm questioning why some can't be. Just like some rap doesn't care about having an amateur sound quality to it but generally sounds clean and polished, just like electronic, which prefers to sound clean and polished, may also have a raw, natural sound to it, especially in the ‘90s when they used Vinyl and Analog synths still and multitracking recording methods. (‘raw’ and ‘natural’ for electronic anyway. link: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3Rn-HznkIIM and https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-Ic3LjosM9M)


"I’m sure some can be. There alomost certainly are some. I’d guess a lot of Prog Metal is probably pretty polished. I don’t know because I don’t really like it much. Tool’s Lateralus comes to mind. While Tool isn’t really metal, that was quite a clear album production-wise.

The issue is, the majority of fans into that style listen to the music they do because it IS raw, it IS imperfect. Take that away and you remove part of the appeal of the music."

I know.....without generalization, i think it's possible that is what may prevent a metal band from wanting to polish their music if they wanted to - their fans may not like it. But I would rather simply say if they dont like one particular song or album from their artist, they can go back to the older stuff.

This has happened to a lot of stuff I listen to, but I still like them purely for the fact their old stuff exists...

"Firstly, you and I both know you aren’t qualified to make any sweeping generalizations about metal because you don’t know much about it. You’re basing your opinions on whatever small percentage of metal you’ve actually been exposed to. Which is limited to anyone who doesn’t actively seek it out. You’re not going to hear a fair representation anywhere “metal” is played, because even metal has it’s mainstream."

I apologize for the unwarranted generalizations.

"Also as I said above, you’re making up rules based on your preferences and applying them across the board. There are no “rules” to music. Writing, playing, recording, whatever."

Exactly. So why is it difficult for me to find clean, polished metal if that is my preference? I'm not trying to force it down anyone's throats, I'm trying to say 'Why can't I find any?'

If everyone here listens to metal so much, can you recommend me some 'clean, polished' metal then?

"Your limited perspective on the music in question is clouding your opinion. “sellout” has nothing to do with polish."

- It certainly feels that way sometimes, that's all.

"It has everything to do with intentional efforts to change to gain new fans. It’s generally a fairly drastic change in the music itself. Most people aren’t paying much mind to the recording quality either way.
Bands don’t get ostracized from a scene because they record music a certain way, it’s generally because they suck. Part of that may being too clean, but there would be other metal people who may be into that."

Fair enough.

"Some try to claim metal as some welcoming culture. It is not. At all. It’s actually the opposite. Many bands I like fight against this. The “old school” metalheads generally hate any bastard genres mixed with their metal. I happen to love this. The artists I like are often not “metal” enough for many metal people. There are ever-present arguments about what “real” metal is or isn’t. Slayer=real metal. Candiria= not real metal. Nonsense.
Think of metal fans more like little individual tribes in one geographic location. They war for territory among each other, but if a total alien tribe came in they’d likely fight it off together, then go back to fighting each other."

True.

Also, those italics were an accident, not meant to emphasize or anything.



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12 Feb 2016, 11:03 pm

I'm not going to quote all of that again... :lol:

Sorry if my tone was combative or defensive. It was unintended. Your responses seemed as though you may have taken it that way.

I guess the main point is here, different music requires different approaches to recording. There isn't a one size fits all. I'm wondering if part of the disconnect here is the fact that you like digital music. It doesn't need to be mic'd, the room you are playing in doesn't matter etc. While not being an audio engineer, I would imagine having mixed sources that all need to fight for ear space (acoustic drums and live vocals, mixed with direct digital inputs as well) make for a bigger challenge.

As far as your seeking what sort of metal may have more clear production, I guess i may be somewhat unclear as to exactly what you mean. My definition of clear may be very different and we may be closer in opinion than it would appear. I do tend toward less muddled sound. I need a snare that really cracks. A very rich kick drum. I want clear defined bass where I can hear the pluck and bounce of the strings. I want growled vocals to be mostly dry and be out front, with my cleans pretty reverb-y.

My point is, give me a few examples of what you consider to be clear and professional, and I will see what I can suggest that may appeal to your ear.

One album that comes to mind is "The Downward Spiral" from Nine Inch Nails. This is quite old, as in 1994. But Trent Reznor is considered one of the, if not THE premier industrial godfather to this day, though he's lost his edge. This is a fairly well-known, well regarded classic. So you may be familiar already.

Maybe not what you are referring to, but some of the not intentionally muffled songs (like the well known March of the Pigs which was VERY raw and unpolished) are quite refined as he incorporated many layers of digital sound. It's not quite metal, but an all-time classic nonetheless. I suggest "The Becoming" however in light of our discussion, posting a you tube link seems to defeat the purpose :lol:



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14 Feb 2016, 6:32 am

When evaluating how much I like a particular genre of music (or a more specific artist or song), I like to place it on a continuum:

At one end there is music that I genuinely love and that I actively play and listen to (for me this is classical, blues, broadway).
In the middle there is music that I'm personally not into, but I can understand why people might like it, and I have respect for the musicians and/or songwriters (Jazz, Rock).
Then at the other end there is the noise that I don't even like to refer to as 'music', and I cannot understand for the life of me why it is so popular (modern Pop, rap, hiphop, basically anything mainstream post 1990).

Metal is in the middle category for me. I dislike it for the same reasons as the OP, however I respect Metal musicians as they are highly technically skilled, and I can understand how people like it.

This might sound very weird, but it seems to me that the players and fans of metal and classical have a lot in common. Both are umbrella terms for a very wide range of subgenres (and therefore suffer from generalisation), both suffer from varying degrees of elitism (making it less accessible to the general public). Both are sophisticated art forms in that they require years of dedicated instrumental practice before you will be able to play it well. They are also both acquired tastes, and indeed a decent proportion of their fanbases are musicians themselves to some degree, therefore they have more appreciation and respect for the hard work that goes into it.


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14 Feb 2016, 8:53 am

"Sorry if my tone was combative or defensive. It was unintended. Your responses seemed as though you may have taken it that way."

Somewhat, yes. I find that the other user, thewrll, generally accepted I simply have different tastes and accepts different bands will produce their music differently.

"I'm wondering if part of the disconnect here is the fact that you like digital music. It doesn't need to be mic'd, the room you are playing in doesn't matter etc. While not being an audio engineer, I would imagine having mixed sources that all need to fight for ear space (acoustic drums and live vocals, mixed with direct digital inputs as well) make for a bigger challenge."

Agreed, recording live instruments requires a lot of technics and equipment that doesn't go into creating music purely by computer. I don't think that essentially makes it 'harder' though, just that there are differences.

And what you're referring to is the audio spectrum, aka certain instruments and sounds occupy different spaces in the mix. Bass is in the Sub-Bass and Bass, the Kick drum in the Bass range, Electric guitar in the mid-range, vocals in the upper mid, hi-hats/cymbals in the Treble/Hi-freqs, etc.

Plus, not all electronic music is produced digitally. Especially from the '70s to the '90s, the technology was more primitive. There were plenty who would actually record themselves playing their analog synthesizers, and then multi-track and layer them.

Aka recording the leads, recording the percussion and playing it by hand, recording the bass, etc. all individually.

Also, some groups, especially electronic rock groups, do all that stuff as well.

The best examples are Pendelum and Stateless.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ogMNV33AhCY

Also, you could say some pop music, which may incorporate a combination of lively recorded instruments and digitally rendered, also counts.

"My point is, give me a few examples of what you consider to be clear and professional, and I will see what I can suggest that may appeal to your ear."

I've heard of Nine Inch Nails, none of their stuff though. To my standards, yes, that ablum is generally cleanly produced. Some of the stuff is polished, with abrasive sounds intentionally layered.

See I desire clean metal as I usually do listen to Pop Punk and Pop Rock such as blink-182, Sum-41, Simple Plan, etc. but they're often far too 'soft' sometimes. Sometimes I desire more aggressive and/or more slower paced stuff, instead of stuff with the typical three and a half minute pop verse-chorus-verse structure.

I desire something 'heavy' without sounding like a raw, cluttered mess to my ears. The small amount of 'pop' metal I listed, Metallica and Iron Maiden and such, instrumental versions of their music I do enjoy.

These two, to me, are produced to perfection:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IlNeg0wR1HA
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z195hZSD3Bg

Maybe I've already found enough, but all I know for now is to scour instrumental Metallica, Megadeth and Iron Maiden.



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15 Feb 2016, 1:57 am

For really clean metal I would suggest you look at bands that are signed to major labels and not independent labels. Also stay away from black, doom, and death. Gravitate more towards thrash.


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15 Feb 2016, 7:32 am

zeertheseer wrote:
do you know any metal that doesn't say sad things? literally every single Metal song I have heard has deep lyrics its true, but there huge debby downers.

yes. a lot, actually.

if you don't listen to it often enough i get why you wouldn't like it, especially since you're comparing it to "screamo" i'm guessing you've spent no time listening to it. which, is fine, i'm not dogging for you it. i'll say this, if you ever go to a metal concert of any sort, the energy there is a million times more exciting than anything you'll experience from music otherwise.

it's all subjective though, music with a "good beat" only goes so far for me, because that could literally mean anything. music is a lot more than a cute baseline to me. and while i listen to a lot of edm as well, i just strongly prefer metal.


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15 Feb 2016, 4:02 pm

beakybird wrote:
LexingtonDeville wrote:
zeertheseer wrote:
Ok, I realize I am probably going to get a lot of hate for this, but I want to get it out of the way. I wish to make this clear, I HATE metal and Screamo. Despise it, I don't like rap, opera gives me a headache, but metal is in my opinion the worst music to exist. Now allow me to explain. people say all the time that people hate metal because its all screamo and that they don't even listen to the lyrics. that's not why I hate metal. in fact, lyrics are pointless in a lot of songs to me, I love beat. my problem is with what the lyrics say, its true I have been forced to listen to a couple, and they have very deep lyrics. here is my problem, YOUR SCREAMING THEM AT ME. and a lot of lyrics I do hear are usually (not all the time but a lot) about being trapped somewhere, or feeling left out, or feeling sad, or just negative feelings in general. there are VERY few happy songs, and you being screamed at to either be happy or be told to be happy, hell if I told a happy story with no beat just screaming the entire time would you not get a headache? I would, of course they have beat, which annoys me even more. I like beats, beats are what I listen to, I love country beats, J-pop, Alternative. but I can't take the beats of metal its sadistic. now I am not saying metal is satans music, But I am saying that I Hate all screamo and metal.

Long story short?

The lyrics are deep but negative and make you feel sad making most people feel they can "relate"
the lyrics are almost all more or less SCREAMED, and those that aren't just sound either psychotic or sad
most of the music videos have these horrible things happening in them that are not at first apparant, things like singer waking up then realizing their in there own grave and try to scream to get out? I MEAN COME ON


So you base metal as the worse music genre because you believe it's negative? Clearly you haven't listened to the power metal sub-genre, which is mostly uplifting and not even the slightest bit negative. And don't try to compare it to screamo, that's just stupid generalisation. They're two completely different musical sub-genres, regardless of what the idiots in the media say.


Yes. Screamo is a relatively small sub-genre at that, and one trend that's mostly come and gone.

Bottom line is, you can't make ANY sweeping generalizations about metal because it can be so different from style to style. Anyone who does so simply doesn't know what they are talking about.


Last I checked screamo was definitely not even a sub-genre of metal to begin with...so if one judged it based on that genre they couldn't make any generalizations about metal at all, let alone sweeping ones. In fact I might understand why they don't like 'metal' if they thought screamo and metal are the same thing.


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15 Feb 2016, 4:20 pm

Outrider wrote:
Sweetleaf: "But metal isn't about being clear sounding or easy on the ears to bring in more and more people, I mean there's a whole subculture with it."

I'm questioning why some can't be. Just like some rap doesn't care about having an amateur sound quality to it but generally sounds clean and polished, just like electronic, which prefers to sound clean and polished, may also have a raw, natural sound to it, especially in the ‘90s when they used Vinyl and Analog synths still and multitracking recording methods. (‘raw’ and ‘natural’ for electronic anyway. link: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3Rn-HznkIIM and https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-Ic3LjosM9M)

For as long as metal has been around, with all its sub-genres, it’s a little odd there’s a clear lack of diversity and variation regarding sound engineering.

I don’t care if it’s ‘not a part of the sub-culture’. That’s an excuse. For all its claims of being ‘free’ from the rules of music production, it’s a little ironic one would ostracize bands who choose to have good music production.

Freedom to not follow the rules should also allow freedom to follow the rules.

Otherwise, it’s not a very liberal genre if someone who does like music production is a ‘sellout’.

In this very section in the ‘Wrongplanet Musicians showcase’ I did find one user who posted their soundcloud and they actually had a metal band with a clear, crisp sound to it. It sounded amazing to my ears. They have just as much right to be part of ‘the culture’ than bands who make raw, natural sound. If not...you’re not a very welcoming culture than, like metalheads claim.

If the sound is not to your preference, than you don’t have to listen to it. But if you were to outright ostracize and outcast the bands and artists that do have clear sound production, then I see a problem.


I hate auto-tune rap, I imagine that is what you mean by the polished sort.

Anyways there is no rule that says a metal band cant have cleaner production but no rule that says they ought to either...that is up to the band and how they want to record their music as well as what kind of equipment they can afford. Dimmu Borgir has some pretty clean production and they are probably one of my favorite metal bands...and haven't you heard of Ghost? some picky metal fans that only like the extreme stuff complain about how they aren't metal enough(clean vocals more Black Sabbath era syle music), another one of my favorite bands.

Also I don't care too much about the technical aspects of recording, so whether that is diverse I couldn't say and I admit I probably wouldn't care...but I do know there is a lot of diversity in the sound of metal music and vocals and all that. It almost seems there are as many metal subgenres as there are other genres of music.

Also good production or even polished being a must to strive for in the metal community due to it not being part of the culture doesn't seem like much of an excuse, its just not how metalheads see it. Granted there are some fans of metal who take that opinion to an extreme and think it has to have bad production or has to have the goal of scaring people away...but that is kind of a minority of metal fans and a lot of those ones wont even call themselves metalheads because they think they're 'better then that'. But for the most part an excuse isn't needed anyways there is plenty of music geared towards the masses so nothing wrong with something geared towards a somewhat different audience.

Music production also is not what makes a band a sell-out, at least in my opinion...I don't agree with people who think it does, otherwise I'd have to trash my Dimmu Borgir, Children of Bodom and Ghost albums and t-shirts. Most people into metal aren't really anti-production extremists sure they exist but its not like they speak for the entire metal community....there's a**holes in every community aren't there?


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15 Feb 2016, 7:40 pm

Not autotune necessarily. I dislike it myself. But the use of music technology, more expensive equipment of better sound quality, instead of your dad's half-broken amp from '82, and cheap speakers. Modern equipment of decent quality rather than cheap equipment of cheap quality.

Well, maybe excuse was the wrong word. I mean justification for poor quality recordings. I think the idea an album can be poorly produced may be justified by those exact extremists you speak-of.

And fair point about the masses thing.

And that's good that you don't, because I also do not consider it 'selling out' to make your music sound clean. But, sometimes, in my observations I do think it's possible some bands may be criticized even if they stay true to their artistry, but simply incorporate better technology. This doesn't have to mean autotune, but even just using studio-level production rather than garage-band level stuff. But perhaps that is and always will be only the extremists.



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17 Feb 2016, 12:09 am

Outrider wrote:
I desire something 'heavy' without sounding like a raw, cluttered mess to my ears. The small amount of 'pop' metal I listed, Metallica and Iron Maiden and such, instrumental versions of their music I do enjoy.

These two, to me, are produced to perfection:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IlNeg0wR1HA
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z195hZSD3Bg

Maybe I've already found enough, but all I know for now is to scour instrumental Metallica, Megadeth and Iron Maiden.



I think ultimately in regards to production, decisions matter more than equipment.



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17 Feb 2016, 1:56 am

I'm a metal fan myself, but I can see why people wouldn't like it, and frankly, most metal artists nowadays suffer from HORRIBLE loudness war-driven production. I know metal is supposed to be heavy, but that DOESN'T mean it's supposed to be at a near constant 0dbfs.

Nightwish, who have otherwise beautiful, melodic arrangements in their songs, suffer greatly from this, as do Children of Bodom and Amon Amarth. Metallica are also quite notorious for their spotty history with album production, ranging from the lack of bass guitar on "...And Justice For All", to the Pro Tools-driven faux-"garage band" sound they went for on "St. Anger", and the crazily brickwalled stuff they've been putting out since "Death Magnetic". I still enjoy all these bands on a musical level, but production-wise, there's room for improvement.

Whenever I listen to old 70s bands like Led Zeppelin, Pink Floyd, or Black Sabbath, I can't help but think "wow, this production is awesome, the instruments are vibrant, and everything actually has breathing room!" Like, I know most metal bands are trying to go for a harsher, more aggressive sound, but I think it would be great if bands like Metallica, Nightwish, etc. looked back on these older production/mastering techniques and applied them to their music. I mean, on the original 1988 version of Megadeth's seminal album "So Far, So Good, So What!", they managed to achieve a raw, thrashy sound while still keeping a good amount of dynamics. Unfortunately, the 2004 remaster, which seems to be the only version widely available nowadays, not only cuts the dynamic range in half, but they also re-recorded a bunch of it as well! It's not even the same f*****g album, it's a sh***y remake!

TL;DR, the loudness war sucks and metal suffers for it.


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