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WurdBendur
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29 Jan 2009, 12:54 am

Dussel wrote:
Not really - if you read German texts prior approx. 1530 you find a strong variation in grammar and spelling. According to Martin Luther's own account he used the "Kursaechische Kanzleisprache" (the "language of the Chancellery of Electoral Saxonian ), which was a composed language under the purpose to be understood by all German speaker.

People like Valentin Ickelsamer (1534, Teutsche Grammatica) and Johannes Clajus (1578, Grammatica Germanicae Linguae) finally brought this into a system, which is still thought on German school.


There's more than a little difference between constructing an artificial language and selecting words or usages from a number of closely-related dialects for the purpose of mutual understanding. The latter is more along the lines of careful diction. And certainly Martin Luther's translation of the Bible had a significant influence on which dialect words and expressions became more common, but you have to remember that they were selected from an existing base of German dialects, which were divided as many other languages were at the time. With increased ease of communication, a few dialects inevitably tend to overwhelm the others. The use of a compromise dialect is not an artificial replacement for the language but the natural process of its transformation. And the fact that some words and structures were taken from Latin is no more to the point than the fact that we use Japanese terms when translating manga. It's called borrowing, and all languages do it as most translators try to be true to the source, not to mention the borrowing of new ideas for which there are no native words (and Christianity is full of such concepts that non-Christians don't necessarily already have or need). Christian culture is where most of these borrowed concepts come from, but of course most were borrowed long before anyone would have bothered to construct an "artificial" German.


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Eggman
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29 Jan 2009, 4:17 am

genderizing generless things insults them


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Dussel
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29 Jan 2009, 5:14 am

WurdBendur wrote:
There's more than a little difference between constructing an artificial language and selecting words or usages from a number of closely-related dialects for the purpose of mutual understanding. The latter is more along the lines of careful diction.


The process of creating modern German went much deeper. The grammar had to been created. The German dialects differ in their grammatical structure significantly: My home dialect e.g. works with two cases: One case used for the Nominative and for the Accusative, the other case combines Genitive and Dative. Other German dialects combine Dative and Accusative (like modern English). The whole system of the Conjunctive has been created along the line of the Latin grammar and can not been found in any of the German dialects (the most German still struggle with the Conjunctive, especially with Conjunctive II). You also find hardly in any German dialect a Future II or a Passive. The most dialects work just with an Indicative, three or even two cases and one form for the Perfect, the Presents and the future.

The mind-blowing complexity of modern German can be only explained from the adoption of a Latin grammar on the top of Germanic languages.

WurdBendur wrote:
And certainly Martin Luther's translation of the Bible had a significant influence on which dialect words and expressions became more common, but you have to remember that they were selected from an existing base of German dialects, which were divided as many other languages were at the time. With increased ease of communication, a few dialects inevitably tend to overwhelm the others.


This is going on within the dialects in Germany, were eg. the Frankfurt dialect becomes more-and-more dominate above other dialects of this region. But the promotion of the modern German was project of the elites how needed a fully employed language for administrative and culture needs. Something the dialects could not serve well.

WurdBendur wrote:
And the fact that some words and structures were taken from Latin is no more to the point than the fact that we use Japanese terms when translating manga. It's called borrowing, and all languages do it as most translators try to be true to the source, not to mention the borrowing of new ideas for which there are no native words (and Christianity is full of such concepts that non-Christians don't necessarily already have or need). Christian culture is where most of these borrowed concepts come from, but of course most were borrowed long before anyone would have bothered to construct an "artificial" German.


But you you don't the need of translating such stuff prior the late 15th century when slowly the Roman Law became dominate and the administration was in need of translating the term of the Ius Commune into German.



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29 Jan 2009, 5:29 am

slowmutant wrote:
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unless of course your furniture has genitalia


:lol:


Ill go check them now!


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spockezri
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29 Jan 2009, 9:06 am

Greyhound wrote:
How can a table, chair or any other inanimate object be masculine or feminine? They have genitalia or chromosomes or hormones etc. so whay are they masculine or feminine in other languages? It makes no sense.

I know...weird, right? I know Welsh has different numbers for masculine and feminine...


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slowmutant
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29 Jan 2009, 10:21 am

Eggman wrote:
genderizing generless things insults them


If thery're just things, how can they be insulted?



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29 Jan 2009, 5:17 pm

slowmutant wrote:
Eggman wrote:
genderizing generless things insults them


If thery're just things, how can they be insulted?


I was thinking the same thing.

I was also thinking, my language, unfortunately, requires me to genderize God. Or, rather, it requires me to either genderize God, depersonalize God, or keep repeating "God" instead of using a pronoun. I tend to go with the genderizing, but I vary the gender.

Now, whether God is of a nature to be able to be offended by genderizing is another debate for another section of the board. :)



just_ben
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29 Jan 2009, 5:21 pm

slowmutant wrote:
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unless of course your furniture has genitalia


:lol:


Hey, don't laugh! my desk has massive nads! It's very sensitive about them though (accordingly I'm still looking for it's p****. Yeah, I went there.).


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slowmutant
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29 Jan 2009, 5:28 pm

just_ben wrote:
slowmutant wrote:
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unless of course your furniture has genitalia


:lol:


Hey, don't laugh! my desk has massive nads! It's very sensitive about them though (accordingly I'm still looking for it's p****. Yeah, I went there.).


If your desk has nads, it won't have the other thing. Unless it's intersexed.



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29 Jan 2009, 5:35 pm

There's two parts to the desk. I've got to check the other part. Or maybe I just messed up and didnt think about what I was writing.


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Eggman
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30 Jan 2009, 3:14 am

MR wrote:
slowmutant wrote:
Eggman wrote:
genderizing generless things insults them


If thery're just things, how can they be insulted?


I was thinking the same thing.

I was also thinking, my language, unfortunately, requires me to genderize God. Or, rather, it requires me to either genderize God, depersonalize God, or keep repeating "God" instead of using a pronoun. I tend to go with the genderizing, but I vary the gender.

Now, whether God is of a nature to be able to be offended by genderizing is another debate for another section of the board. :)


Easy.....cars, computers, apliences, You have to treat them nicely or they will get you.


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slowmutant
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30 Jan 2009, 3:23 am

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Now, whether God is of a nature to be able to be offended by genderizing is another debate for another section of the board


God very deliberately created male and female, so why would He be offended by genderizing?



Eggman
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30 Jan 2009, 3:28 am

slowmutant wrote:
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Now, whether God is of a nature to be able to be offended by genderizing is another debate for another section of the board


God very deliberately created male and female, so why would He be offended by genderizing?


most of life is generless, as well as most if not all unlife


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slowmutant
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30 Jan 2009, 3:31 am

Eggman wrote:
slowmutant wrote:
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Now, whether God is of a nature to be able to be offended by genderizing is another debate for another section of the board


God very deliberately created male and female, so why would He be offended by genderizing?


most of life is generless, as well as most if not all unlife


Come again, please?



Eggman
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30 Jan 2009, 3:32 am

slowmutant wrote:
Eggman wrote:
slowmutant wrote:
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Now, whether God is of a nature to be able to be offended by genderizing is another debate for another section of the board


God very deliberately created male and female, so why would He be offended by genderizing?


most of life is generless, as well as most if not all unlife


Come again, please?


most of life is generless, as well as most if not all unlife


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slowmutant
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30 Jan 2009, 3:40 am

Do you mean "genderless?"

To be honest, I'm not sure if there are more gendered life-forms on this earth than there are asexual life-forms. Unlife could mean things that are dead or things that were never alive in the first place ... inorganic material.